Question for the Japanese woodworking experts

[MattS]

I watch a fair few videos on YouTube by Japanese woodworkers and often see the saw below. I’ve no idea what it’s called and wondered why you never see them in the UK?

 

[Trevanion]

Illegal as heck.

 

[Cabinetman]

Looks totally nasty, you would have to hold down the back of the bit of wood quite hard and it looks to me as of the table should be closer to the blade.
It’s not for cutting the most of a tenon is it?
Handles, castings, colour, it looks as if it could’ve been an old British machine.

 

[AndyP]

Have you got a link to the video Matt?
I’d like to see exactly what they are doing.

 

[MattS]

Here’s a link Andy - about 2.5mins in

https://youtu.be/zDkstkzk1mM

Yes using it to trim back a tenon. I guessed it was a safety reason for not being used here, there’s a lot of blade on show but given the blade is pushing down into the table it looks a fairly predictable tool?

 

[Trevanion]

I guessed it was a safety reason for not being used here, there’s a lot of blade on show but given the blade is pushing down into the table it looks a fairly predictable tool?

Until it becomes unpredictable through a defective piece of timber (Knot, piece of hidden metal, etc), snatches the workpiece down levering it off the edge of the bed, ending up below the equator line of the saw which will pull the loose piece of timber towards the saw blade and thus pulling your hand straight into the blade.

I've never seen that type of saw here, but I believe it's a rather common style in most of Asia, either like the one you show where it's an extra bolted onto the side of the machine it's powered off, or a table saw where the blade can be lifted so that it's centre of rotation is above the table, as in this video below at 1:35 onwards:

[youtubessl]awJl6-A6Wgk[/youtubessl]

 

[Woodster]

Here’s a link Andy - about 2.5mins in

https://youtu.be/zDkstkzk1mM

Yes using it to trim back a tenon. I guessed it was a safety reason for not being used here, there’s a lot of blade on show but given the blade is pushing down into the table it looks a fairly predictable tool?

It does look a bit dodgy. In some respects though maybe it’s not as bad as a table saw where the blade is going down at the front near the operator and up at the back?

 

[Cabinetman]

Interesting video, one day he will learn not to push his chisel towards where his other hand is holding the work — I know!

 

[AJB Temple]

Well. That was seriously good quality work. I did not feel that he was being unsafe. Doing some things I would say are not common here, but seemed 100% tool and wood aware. Interesting finishing method with the wiper glove.

 

[Cabinetman]

Well. That was seriously good quality work. I did not feel that he was being unsafe. Doing some things I would say are not common here, but seemed 100% tool and wood aware. Interesting finishing method with the wiper glove.

Well it made me wince watching him, it’s so very easy to do, just one slip, and looking back you wonder how you were so stupid.

 

[Woodbloke]

Well. That was seriously good quality work. I did not feel that he was being unsafe. Doing some things I would say are not common here, but seemed 100% tool and wood aware. Interesting finishing method with the wiper glove.

Agreed, good quality work, but a very, very, simple, uncomplicated thing to put together. ‘Benign’ timber with no curves in it whatsoever. That’s the type of project I would have expected a reasonably competent GCSE student to attempt, though made to a much less precise standard.

His work with a chisel was reasonably safe as there was (as far as I could see) always a bit of wood between the edge and any pink fleshy bits, so his fingers were’t directly in front of the blade.

What I did notice is that when the top was screwed on using those four diagonal brackets, there appeared to be no allowance made for movement - Rob

 

[9fingers]

Those straps used for mounting the top combined with the abhorrent formation of a countersink with a drill point will likely allow sufficient flexibilityto allow modest movement.

Bob

 

[Cabinetman]

Ok, marmite moment. I have always put the glue in the mortise with a little bit around the top for the shoulder, any other way in my opinion is just too messy which is the way he did it.
Agree about the simplicity of the piece and the top, but would also say he had beautifully sharp tools.

 

[Woodbloke]

….but would also say he had beautifully sharp tools.

Shall we have a sharpening thread then? :eusa-whistle: :lol: - Rob

 

[AJB Temple]

Hmm. Personally I think this is well above the level of a GCSE student. Mitred hidden internal tenons, and very precise joints everywhere, is indicative of skill in my book. No bodges. Very sharp tools tend to result in few slips as minimal force is used. I enjoyed the video.

 

[Woodbloke]

Hmm. Personally I think this is well above the level of a GCSE student. Mitred hidden internal tenons, and very precise joints everywhere, is indicative of skill in my book. No bodges. Very sharp tools tend to result in few slips as minimal force is used. I enjoyed the video.

As I mentioned Adrian, built with less precision, but well within the remit of a competent GCSE student; nothing particularly clever about mitred hidden tenons either. When I was teaching GCE ‘O’ Level woodwork in the early 80’s I had students tackle far more ambitious projects. I also used to moderate the exams in our local area which involved visiting schools to assess the students practical and design folder work, some of which was truly mind boggling, in particular from a private girls school where they could spend all the hours under the sun in the school workshop. My colleague Frank (who was especially pernickety, but the best metalwork teacher I ever came across) and I were simply gobsmacked on more than one occasion - Rob

 

[AJB Temple]

That's 40 years ago Rob. School system and syllabus has changed markedly.

 

[Woodbloke]

That's 40 years ago Rob. School system and syllabus has changed markedly.

Absolutely Adrian, and I doubt very much that a current GCSE ‘Technology’ student could produce anything like the sheer quality of work that Frank and I witnessed.

That said, I would love to be proved wrong - Rob

 

[Trevanion]

Absolutely Adrian, and I doubt very much that a current GCSE ‘Technology’ student could produce anything like the sheer quality of work that Frank and I witnessed.

A current GCSE ‘technology” teacher probably couldn’t produce the quality of work those students were producing neither, going off my own experience.

 

[Cabinetman]

I was just trying to work out and couldn’t, when craft subjects stopped being taught the way they were, I think anybody trained under the old system and becoming a teacher will probably have retired by now? Ian

 

[Woodbloke]

I was just trying to work out and couldn’t, when craft subjects stopped being taught the way they were, I think anybody trained under the old system and becoming a teacher will probably have retired by now? Ian

I was one of the last of the proper old skool woodwork teachers when I started in ‘79 and ‘woodwork’ as such was still on the timetable. In the early early 80’s it migrated to ‘Craft & Design’ so that by the end of the 80’s it was now ‘Craft, Design & Technology’ and had to comply with the National Curriculum, which was generally despised. During the 90’s it changed yet again to ‘Technology’ and woodwork as we used to know it had all but disappeared. I can’t remember the exact time frame but it went generally along those lines.

I do remember vividly walking into my ‘shop one day where my then HoD was doing ‘sculptures’ with the kids using files, sandpaper etc. The only issue was that they were using mdf and the ‘shop was a complete fog of mdf dust in the air; :shock: this was long before it was realised how dangerous the stuff is. I distinctly remember taking one look inside and beating a very hasty retreat - Rob

 

[Cabinetman]

I was just trying to work out and couldn’t, when craft subjects stopped being taught the way they were, I think anybody trained under the old system and becoming a teacher will probably have retired by now? Ian

I was one of the last of the proper old skool woodwork teachers when I started in ‘79 and ‘woodwork’ as such was still on the timetable. In the early early 80’s it migrated to ‘Craft & Design’ so that by the end of the 80’s it was now ‘Craft, Design & Technology’ and had to comply with the National Curriculum, which was generally despised. During the 90’s it changed yet again to ‘Technology’ and woodwork as we used to know it had all but disappeared. I can’t remember the exact time frame but it went generally along those lines.

I do remember vividly walking into my ‘shop one day where my then HoD was doing ‘sculptures’ with the kids using files, sandpaper etc. The only issue was that they were using mdf and the ‘shop was a complete fog of mdf dust in the air; :shock: this was long before it was realised how dangerous the stuff is. I distinctly remember taking one look inside and beating a very hasty retreat - Rob

I am just a few years older than you I started teaching woodwork in 1976 or 7, and was very glad not to have to do it anymore after the first year! I think I would have murdered one of the little buggers.
Looking back we were trained almost as makers of furniture instead of woodwork teachers and totally unprepared for the changes that were to come, from your timescale it has been about 40 years since anybody was taught woodwork the way we were trained to teach it, so anyone under 50 won’t have been taught much, hence the strange questions we get asked.
What on earth are they going to do in 20 years time when we’ve all gone! Ian

 

[thetyreman]

I am in my 30s now, we had 'design and technology' in my school but it was truly abysmal by that time, it was the late 90s and my teacher was an absolute idiot, I distinctly remember him hating hand tools and him openly admitting that he liked taking drugs, terrible role model and it was just an excuse for the bad kids to mess about in his class, with big machines and almost no health and safety....

one kid got expelled for attempting to cut off somebody's ear with a scalpel! it was an absolute mess by that time and it really put me off, there's was absolutely no encouragement from my teacher at all and most people failed their GCSE's, having the right teacher is absolutely critical if you want kids to succeed.

I am amazed the school didn't get shut down it was that bad lol

 

[Woodbloke]

I am just a few years older than you I started teaching woodwork in 1976 or 7, and was very glad not to have to do it anymore after the first year! I think I would have murdered one of the little buggers.
Looking back we were trained almost as makers of furniture instead of woodwork teachers and totally unprepared for the changes that were to come, from your timescale it has been about 40 years since anybody was taught woodwork the way we were trained to teach it, so anyone under 50 won’t have been taught much, hence the strange questions we get asked.
What on earth are they going to do in 20 years time when we’ve all gone! Ian

Newcomers, I guess, learn from t’interweb which is why I’m pretty scathing of much of the appalling stuff shown on UToob, particularly some of the dreadful clips emanating from ‘murrica, where those watching think it’s the ‘right way’ to do something, when in many cases (not all it has to be said) they’re liable at best to loose a finger or much worse.

InstaG and Faffbook aren’t much better. Some time ago I had a little ‘altercation’ with Derek Jones, ex ed of F&C who I respect enormously. In one of his posts he showed a chisel being used in one hand, with the job held in the other; one of the very basic rules that we used to drum into kids time and again. Never, ever under any circumstance have your fingers in front of the blade.

I laid into him (wearing my ex-teacher’s chapeau) about the merits of the post and how newcomers would see it and think it was the right way to to the job, when it obviously wasn’t. After some offline ‘discussion’ he could see the validity of my argument and hasn’t posted anything similar since.

That said, there are some really excellent private courses that have sprung up in the last couple of decades (think Peter Sefton etc) but they’re only for the very well heeled as they mostly cost an arm and both legs - Rob

 

[AJB Temple]

By contrast, my eldest went to an academic prep school near where we lived and they had a proper D&T department and workshops. Being private sector the school had flexibility as to whom they appointed as teachers and the head recruited a South African man who had worked in various industries as an engineer. He was fully computer literate, had no problem with lathes, milling machines etc, and had no issues with hand tools. He did not have a teaching qualification and did not need one as he inspired the kids anyway. A couple of fathers helped out at times, one of whom presented TV programmes on inventions where he would personally do the fabrication. Forget his name. Had a superb large workshop at his house as well.

They also did (with different teachers) pottery, sculpture and metal casting.

It's perfectly possible to get this stuff right but we have substantially destroyed the vocational sector of schools in favour of, in very many cases, faux academic learning. Pretending that all kids can achieve academic success is daft, and in many cases sets up failure.

I went to a grammar school then fully bursary funded scholarship to a fee paying school. I could only do woodwork and metalwork briefly as it clashed with academic studies, but what teaching I did get as a young kid and you teenager was really great. It is a huge mistake for our education system to lose this - as it has.

 

[Woodbloke]

By contrast, my eldest went to an academic prep school near where we lived and they had a proper D&T department and workshops. Being private sector the school had flexibility as to whom they appointed as teachers and the head recruited a South African man who had worked in various industries as an engineer. He was fully computer literate, had no problem with lathes, milling machines etc, and had no issues with hand tools. He did not have a teaching qualification and did not need one as he inspired the kids anyway. A couple of fathers helped out at times, one of whom presented TV programmes on inventions where he would personally do the fabrication. Forget his name. Had a superb large workshop at his house as well.

They also did (with different teachers) pottery, sculpture and metal casting.

It's perfectly possible to get this stuff right but we have substantially destroyed the vocational sector of schools in favour of, in very many cases, faux academic learning. Pretending that all kids can achieve academic success is daft, and in many cases sets up failure.

I went to a grammar school then fully bursary funded scholarship to a fee paying school. I could only do woodwork and metalwork briefly as it clashed with academic studies, but what teaching I did get as a young kid and you teenager was really great. It is a huge mistake for our education system to lose this - as it has.

Agreed Adrian; the private system can pretty much do as it pleases and in many cases the provision for a workshop based education is (and always was) much better than the State schools (which is where I taught)
Workshop activities as I used to know them years ago have to a large part sadly disappeared ‘down the pan - Rob

 

[MattS]

Compared to the teaching from your time Rob my D&T education was weak - school during mid to late 90s but having looked at schools for my daughter (starting September) there is so little making it's shocking!

 

[Malc2098]

My WW teacher, 1961 -1968, would raid the evening class stock and commission me to make bowls, table lamps, lamps standards, even church offertory plates, some of which went to missions in Africa from where the headmistress previously worked.

It was common to find cars dumped around the suburbs, many of which had leather upholstery. This was acquired and used for the bases of all the above.

I would usually be paid in Old Holborn, and sometimes cash, while I wasn't doing my A Level Woodwork studies! Miraculously, I passed!

 

[Peri]

True story.

A colleague in the building & construction department of the establishment I work at had a new class of 16-17 year olds start the term.

One student said "I passed our school's brick laying course with a distinction"
Lecturer said "Go over to that area and build me a 4-course wall"
After 15 minutes nothing is happening, so the lecturer wonders over and says "I thought you had a distinction in brick laying?"
Student replies "I have, but I didn't actually build anything. The teacher built the wall and our class wrote about it".

 

[Trevanion]

It's perfectly possible to get this stuff right but we have substantially destroyed the vocational sector of schools in favour of, in very many cases, faux academic learning. Pretending that all kids can achieve academic success is daft, and in many cases sets up failure.

I'm reminded of fine words from a principled man,

"Skill is what built this country's strength, and it is treated with contempt"

 

[MattS]

Interesting article today in the paper about the drop in numbers doing creative subjects at school. Aware that woodworking involves more than just creativity. But still sad that the school system doesn’t encourage exploring this area which could give a career or just skills that enhance your whole life

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... SApp_Other

 

[AJB Temple]

That was about music and drama.

When eldest was at prep (10 years ago) in Surrey, they had 40 full and part time teachers available to the music and drama department, some coming in ad hoc to teach specific things, including a Russian concert pianist who also taught me. I think there were around 300 kids. Next door (two fields down) is a state school with about 600 kids. They had a music department of one and a half people.

I offered to donate my used (about 5 years old) grand piano to the school (very nice instrument - I was materially upgrading). They refused it due to cost of insurance they said. So I offered to pay for the insurance as well. I also offered to give lessons to students who were already studying piano - they needed to have some idea as I had never taught beginners. Some of the prep school staff were also willing to help teach violin, piano, clarinet and drums I think. All insured by the prep school. Head of music was super nice Asian lady who was a well known quartet violinist, and the state school should have snatched our hands off.

This all required checks to prove, presumably, I was not a mad man (was fine as I was also doing voluntary advice for citizens advice bureau) and I freely admitted I was not a qualified teacher (I just had a RAM performance diploma in classical piano which is more than most teachers ever get). But they still decided that they could not do it as it "would single out some children for privileged treatment". Just dismissed out of hand without even assessing demand. Amazing we thought.

And that pretty much sums up the state system for me. This was near Guildford and was quite a well off area by and large. Kids missed out. No one gained. I sold the piano. No real risk was avoided.

State system by and large would rather moan about private education I think than embrace partnerships. Parents who send their kids to private schools still pay for the state system but don't use it. State system should benefit from less pressure on resources.

 

[Cabinetman]

That was an incredible gesture from yourself and the others and such a depressing mindset, we’ve all come across it In oh so many different ways. I now feel I can’t say what I want to say on all sorts of things.
The oppression on FreeSpeech is getting worse and worse. I Just read in the Telegraph, a 27-year-old girl who escaped from North Korea where her neighbour was shot by firing squad for passing on a Hollywood video, and the fear means that nobody says anything, not even to themselves in case they are reading your mind, She now claims that in America, where she has been for the past 10 years, she is almost as afraid to speak her mind.
We have got off topic a lot, but do you agree? That when talking to anybody under the age of 30-40 you have to be very careful what you say?

 

[AJB Temple]

We have got off topic a lot, but do you agree? That when talking to anybody under the age of 30-40 you have to be very careful what you say?

That has not really been my experience. When I had my last business most of the staff (circa 50) were between about 23 and 33. Slightly more women. Mix of races and nationalities typical of London City. Mostly I found them enlightened and open minded. But this did begin to change as over a period of about 10 years some of the new graduates and trainees coming in acted far more entitled and with a high opinion of themselves not justified by anything discernible.

But London is a funny place. We were a very equality minded business so maybe my experience is untypical.

 

[AndyP]

We have got off topic a lot, but do you agree? That when talking to anybody under the age of 30-40 you have to be very careful what you say?

That has not really been my experience. When I had my last business most of the staff (circa 50) were between about 23 and 33. Slightly more women. Mix of races and nationalities typical of London City. Mostly I found them enlightened and open minded. But this did begin to change as over a period of about 10 years some of the new graduates and trainees coming in acted far more entitled and with a high opinion of themselves not justified by anything discernible.

But London is a funny place. We were a very equality minded business so maybe my experience is untypical.

What seems to have happened lately (since the rise of social media) is that some people do not make allowances for the intent in what people say. Concentrating on the words and how they would use them rather than trying to understand how the speaker or writer intended.
Facial clues are used a lot when we communicate face to face. A wink, a raised eyebrow, a hint of a smile are hard to convey in written communication, even with smilies. Surgical masks don’t help in this respect either

All communication is two way we all have a duty not to offend but also not to be too easily offended.

I hope that makes sense and conveys what I am trying to say.

 

[sunnybob]

Training is only as good as the teachers, not the children (or adults).
One of the many gas certification courses I had to take every 5 years (and pass, or lose my job) was at Bircham Newton, home of the trade teaching courses.
I had to stay up there for 5 days. On the first day, the instructor gave us a little speech,
"I've developed this course, you are all going to pass".

The implied undertone was he was going to pass everybody or look bad.

There was a college caretaker on the course. This man had no experience, and no interest, but because he pressed the button that lit the gas boilers in the college he had to have a ticket. He passed and was deemed competent to work on any domestic gas installation.
Of the 12 in that class room with me, I would not have let 4 of them in my house to work on my gas.
On the last day of exams, the "tutor" was walking around the class giving answers to the people who knew nothing about anything.
Everybody passed.
Be afraid, be very afraid.