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Pork Pie Raiser?

Blackswanwood said:
Interesting that in the Etsy link I posted yesterday a maker of Melton Mowbray Pies is selling them with a 90mm diameter described as “The perfect size and shape to make a traditional 1lb (454g) Melton Mowbray Pork Pie …” AI 🤷😉
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That sounds about right, I made a few years ago for a local butcher, Mattty (anyone remember him :unsure:) had give me some 4” square beech & I turned them out of that & I remember it being just the right size for turning.
 
Well this thread has got me going. There is currently a mixture of pork mince, chopped belly, sage, thyme, nutmeg, mace, S&P, sitting in the fridge.
I shall make mine in a tin, though, rather than using a dolly.
S
 
Good for you Steve.

I try to make the vast majority of what we eat and for our restaurant customers it is all made in house. Pork is very economical - we bought half a pig, two pigs heads, a dozen or so tails (free) and some very fresh pork offal this week, plus a bag of natural intestines (which is a lot - but they freeze well) for making sausages. Free trotters. Pig brains are amazing, (but must be cooked pronto and you need a skilled butcher to extract them) and really fresh pigs liver is much better than I had previously thought (calves liver addict here).

Someone on another forum suggested making faggots using the pluck. Didn't do that this time.

It has taken me two days of solid work to process half a pig plus a few bits and bobs (trotters etc). Heads, tongues etc being brined as I write.
 
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We do see trotters in the supermarket here, also whole beef tongue (sometimes half), but none of it is remotely free. It all seems quite expensive to me.
S
 
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Adrian, what sort of flour do you use for your HWC pastry? I have here T45 (general purpose) and T65 (a bread flour). I think I also have some T55 (which is also labeled general purpose) and a bag of powdered gluten. I add a teaspoon of the gluten to the T65 when I make bread, it makes the world of difference.
S
 
AJB Temple said:
...pigs liver is much better than I had previously thought (calves liver addict here).
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Not so keen myself, I prefer lamb's liver, but you can't get it here, something to do with an endemic parasite. Even if you take your own sheep to the slaughterhouse, they don't give you the liver.
We have a couple of slaughterhouses near here, just a few kilometers away. Both protected like Fort Knox. One of them used to have a Farm Shop nearby, but that, like most other things round here, closed down.
S
 
Pig's liver every time. I've eaten pork pies here, there and everywhere over the years but I've never come across one I'd go back for. The first thing I do is get any jelly in them out and throw it away. Disgusting.
 
Steve Maskery said:
Adrian, what sort of flour do you use for your HWC pastry? I have here T45 (general purpose) and T65 (a bread flour). I think I also have some T55 (which is also labeled general purpose) and a bag of powdered gluten. I add a teaspoon of the gluten to the T65 when I make bread, it makes the world of difference.
S
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Steve I primarily use Shipton Mill organic stone ground strong white flour. T ratings are not generally used for stone ground flours - only roller milled. I also use quite a bit of their stone ground organic rye flour. Both bought by the sack (25kg and 16kg respectively). For the hot water pastry recipe development I am trying both and a 50/50 mix. A
 
Steve Maskery said:
We do see trotters in the supermarket here, also whole beef tongue (sometimes half), but none of it is remotely free. It all seems quite expensive to me.
S
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There is, I am told, very little demand for pigs trotters, tongues etc in the UK. Brawn has fallen out of favour and you never see things like chitterlings any more. Only the hind trotters are useful for making sweetbread and morel stuffed pigs trotters in the way that Pierre Koffmann did.

I am very loyal to our butcher. Obviously trade prices. We get free stuff like trotters, bone marrow and chicken carcasses whenever I want them. He reckons that the vast majority of restaurants no longer use trotters etc as they buy in stocks and jus now from industrial manufacturers. They can't afford the energy costs or the staffing needed to do all the prep and skimming etc. Catering colleges no longer teach how to prep things like trotters, or even kidneys and liver. We are losing a lot in this country as we have sleepwalked into dependence on factory made supermarket convenience food.
 
Meat from head of pigs, cattle and other parts such as tongue etc. I'm sure AJ will expand on this.
Thinking of it grosses me out, the saying at home was ' not more head cheese '.
 
Head cheese or brawn, pretty much the same thing. Requires the lowest possible simmer for 6 to 8 hours. Head cut up, brined, washed, then cooked in aromats and herbs fully covered in cold water. Ideally with some trotters in the same pan, wrapped in muslin. No salt. Cooled and carefully picked by hand. Put into a terrine. Back filled with rich jelly. Very important not to ruin it by boiling the life out of it. I use a temp probe to control the simmer.

The jelly is made by reducing roughly equal quantities of the cooking stock (herbs, onions etc removed) with a bottle of white wine and cooking until much reduced. This is nothing like the commercial jellies you get in supermarket pork pies.

If you want to sell it you call it porc terrine a la Francais or something like that, serve cold, sliced, with home made picallili or spicy plum or fig conserve and people love it.

To me it is entirely illogical to be repulsed by some bits of the inside of an animal, and not others. The tastiest pork is the cheek. Which is in the head you may be surprised to learn! Pork brains are a French charcuterie delicacy but need to be super fresh and requires skill in prep and cooking.
 
AJB Temple said:
The jelly is made by reducing roughly equal quantities of the cooking stock (herbs, onions etc removed) with a bottle of white wine and cooking until much reduced. This is nothing like the commercial jellies you get in supermarket pork pies.
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If it is just stock and white wine, how does it set? Don't you need some gelatine?
S
PS, My pie is in the oven...
 
When you cook a pigs head and 8 trotters in a 30 litre pot, the resulting cooking stock will turn to jelly anyway when it cools. The white wine adds considerable depth of flavour. To make a dark jelly you can use a bottle of cream sherry instead of white wine. I usually add some catering brandy as well. 2.5 litres delivered yesterday as it happens.

I wrap each trotter in muslin and then do these separately by tunnel boning and stuffing with morels and sweetbreads. This is the famous Pierre Koffmann recipe. Hind trotters only. Fronts are not suitable. Copied by Marco originally (and credited to Pierre) and lately by the two guys at Fallow.
 
1.jpeg1 (1).jpeg
Half of one of the heads. A whole head minus tongue and brains weighs about 12kg.
The pot is the largest one I've got that fits the induction hob and also the oven. The trotters in muslim are in the bottom (otherwise they float). The ears will be pressed, cut into strips and deep fried as crispy pig's ears. They go very well with Chinese sweet and sour sauce.
 
Thank you.
Sherry is something else that doesn't exist over here, too. I can sometimes get a bottle of Fino in LeClerc, but the choice is take it or leave it and I bought a bottle, I'm in no rush to buy a second one. No Amontillado and certainly no Harvey's Bristol Cream!
S
 
Well here is the result of my little PP adventure.
I discovered that the tin I had bought for Steve and Brian's Pork Pie Bake Off was too big for the amount of filling I had (500g). My other little springform was too small, so I had no choice but to do the hand-raised option. I used a Kilner jar. I've not made many PPs in my life, and this was the first one without a tin.

kilner jar.jpg

Then it was in with the filling and a fancy lid.

ready for the oven.jpg

Believe it or not, I did crimp the top. C-, Could Do Better.

I baked it at 180C, but I'm not sure exactly how long for. After 35m it was nowhere near up to temperature, so it probably had close to an hour.

cooked 1.jpg

I removed the sleeve and eggwashed the sides and gave it another 10 mins. The centre was 80-something, so it was well done. The end result looks like this:

the good side.jpg

At least, it does until you turn it round. I had to patch the pastry where it was a bit thin, and whilst it looked fine on the inside of the sleeve, it obviously wasn't so good on the outside (which of course, I couldn't see at the time).

the crack.jpg

I think that might cause me problems when I come to add the jelly.
S
 
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AJB Temple said:
View attachment 35146View attachment 35147
Half of one of the heads. A whole head minus tongue and brains weighs about 12kg.
The pot is the largest one I've got that fits the induction hob and also the oven. The trotters in muslim are in the bottom (otherwise they float). The ears will be pressed, cut into strips and deep fried as crispy pig's ears. They go very well with Chinese sweet and sour sauce.
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Looks offally good to me.😀
 
Steve Maskery said:
Thank you.
Sherry is something else that doesn't exist over here, too. I can sometimes get a bottle of Fino in LeClerc, but the choice is take it or leave it and I bought a bottle, I'm in no rush to buy a second one. No Amontillado and certainly no Harvey's Bristol Cream!
S
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Surprising. Spain and Portugal are just over the Pyrenees. You paint a picture of France turning into a bit of a desert for foodies. Memory (good hotels and obsessive visits to markets) is that delights were always there. Never tried to source fortified wines though. I am an Armagnac fan boy and in my foolish youth had Calvados too.

What is causing this decline in superb French produce?
 
The French are VERY protective about their heritage. They are French, not European. As for what has happened - the same as everywhere else. The old ways die with the population, the young want fast and cheap. Burgers, pizza, chips. There is even a McDonalds going to open in Bellac.
It's very disappointing, really.
S
 
We get Cognac and Armagnac, though little choice. No cheap Napoleon stuff for making your own liqueurs.
A dozen or more types of Port (though no LBV, just tawny and ruby). I have found one, Westport, that is as good as a decent LBV.
Lots of Scotch I'd never before encountered (and much of it don't want to again). Some single malts, though (Glenfiidich, Glenmorangie, Ardburgh, Chivas Regal etc.) but at French prices. But also some French and Japanese whiskies. Don't bother.
In short, the food offerings in the UK, both supermarket and restaurant, knock the French into a cocked hat.
S
 
AJB Temple said:
Head cheese or brawn, pretty much the same thing. Requires the lowest possible simmer for 6 to 8 hours. Head cut up, brined, washed, then cooked in aromats and herbs fully covered in cold water. Ideally with some trotters in the same pan, wrapped in muslin. No salt. Cooled and carefully picked by hand. Put into a terrine. Back filled with rich jelly. Very important not to ruin it by boiling the life out of it. I use a temp probe to control the simmer.

The jelly is made by reducing roughly equal quantities of the cooking stock (herbs, onions etc removed) with a bottle of white wine and cooking until much reduced. This is nothing like the commercial jellies you get in supermarket pork pies.

If you want to sell it you call it porc terrine a la Francais or something like that, serve cold, sliced, with home made picallili or spicy plum or fig conserve and people love it.

To me it is entirely illogical to be repulsed by some bits of the inside of an animal, and not others. The tastiest pork is the cheek. Which is in the head you may be surprised to learn! Pork brains are a French charcuterie delicacy but need to be super fresh and requires skill in prep and cooking.
Click to expand...
I agree that it is entirely illogical, but in this case I'm happy to be entirely illogical.
 
That oh so slight here and there bubble rising to the surface which shows the correct temperature when making stock I have found is only to be achieved in the oven, sorry can’t remember the temp as I’ve marked the dial with a needle prick.
Don’t think I would be able to face pigs heads and brawn though. But stupid as I do love a proper pork pie.
 
The latest large single zone induction hobs will also do it Ian. We have a Gaggenau one. I can put a probe in the pot, connect it to the system and it will keep the liquid at the right temperature for whatever time you programme. It can also turn the hob off when you have hit the right temperature for jam for example, and also turn off if the pot is in danger of running dry. We actually went out and left it all day. Some tech is actually useful! I can also turn it off remotely from my phone if I want. It basically means you could use the hob as a sous vide (though I don't as I prefer a separate SV).

The ovens also have probes and are guaranteed accurate to 1 degree C. The main oven will heat from ambient to 180C fan in 3 minutes. The somewhat larger rotisserie oven is slower but I only use the rotisserie for suckling pig.

When the head has been stripped down, frankly it's just meat. Looks like any other picked meat. I discard everything that is unappetising and fat and skin strips away very easily, leaving very tasty meat. I suspect the butchers of old put a lot of stuff in brawn that I would not consider using.
 
AJB Temple said:
The latest large single zone induction hobs will also do it Ian. We have a Gaggenau one. I can put a probe in the pot, connect it to the system and it will keep the liquid at the right temperature for whatever time you programme. It can also turn the hob off when you have hit the right temperature for jam for example, and also turn off if the pot is in danger of running dry. We actually went out and left it all day. Some tech is actually useful! I can also turn it off remotely from my phone if I want. It basically means you could use the hob as a sous vide (though I don't as I prefer a separate SV).

The ovens also have probes and are guaranteed accurate to 1 degree C. The main oven will heat from ambient to 180C fan in 3 minutes. The somewhat larger rotisserie oven is slower but I only use the rotisserie for suckling pig.

When the head has been stripped down, frankly it's just meat. Looks like any other picked meat. I discard everything that is unappetising and fat and skin strips away very easily, leaving very tasty meat. I suspect the butchers of old put a lot of stuff in brawn that I would not consider using.a
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ha ha, yes, they used to say the only bit of a pig that wasn’t used was it’s squeal
 
Well guess what was fo dinner tonight?
I cut a slice and that was the frst sign that something was not quite right. I didn't need a chainsaw, not quite, but it was difficult to cut.
first slice.jpg

The pastry, as well as being hard, is too thick, especially around the bottom edge. And where is all the jelly? I put in a good ladleful and I could see it at the top of the hole. None has run out, so where has it gone?

Never mind, it's what it tastes like that matters. So, my first Ploughman's since leaving Blighty:

ploughmans.jpg

Rye bread and butter, salad and mayo, Branston pickle, proper pickled onions (from the UK - I made some a while back but they have gone soggy, I don't know why), English Cheddar, Bleu d'Auvergne (the nearest I've found to Stilton).

And the Pie. And the judges scores are in:

Appearance - Pretty good, apart from the crack, 8/10
Flavour of the filling - very good, 8/10
Texture of the filling - it's a bit solid and a bit dry 6/10
Pastry - very disappointing. It's too hard, too thick and not very nice to eat 3/10
Jelly - well what little there is is pretty good, but it's practically non-existent - 5/10

It would never win BakeOff.

S
 
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Well, there is not much jelly because the pie was pretty full and the filling hasn't shrunk much.
If the filling is too solid the usual cause is a) over worked and b) not enough fat. It needs fat to relax.
If you want a softer texture - ignore recipe classics and add some fruit. Semi dried apricots (see river shop - v. cheap) work well as do cranberries and partially dehydrated apple. Helps if you have a proper dehydrator.
Pastry is a black art. It always needs to be 50% thinner than you first think.
I've done a shed load of these now (40 or so in the last couple of days) and for small production like you are doing a very short blind bake with an internal egg wash afterwards wins hands down.
Flour quality matters. As does the hot water method.
The inside of the pastry looks near uncooked. The jelly is half the problem and thickness is the other half - this is why I do a very short (maximum 6 minutes) blind bake.
Not sure how you are processing the meat. It must not be overcooked. Hand chopped is best, very course ground, just once, is second best.
Sounds repulsive but I taste the meat before cooking. It is extremely fresh. If you don't do this you are likely to screw up the seasoning. Remember that cold food tastes much less seasoned than hot food - flavour is diluted.
Cook longer and at lower temp.
The evaporation / fill hole is too big.
The crack round the side is not super helpful. But that is life. Keep some spare pastry in the fridge, cling wrapped, for repairs.

If you are ever back in the UK, call in, with a few days notice, and pick up a sack of flour!

I think you have done really well.

A
 
Thank you Adrian.
I've seen pork and apple pies before, but never been tempted. Good tips on the pastry. I used a 50/50 mix of ordinary supermarket T45 (all purpose) and Bio (organic) T65.
The mince was bought minced, but the belly I chopped myself.
I did add some breadcrumb to try to keep in the moisture, I may have overdone it a bit.
Thanks for the offer of some flour, I might even let you cook me dinner! :)
S
 
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For Steve....this is the jelly. No setting agent has been added. I actually made it as a court bouillon by adding celery, carrot, onion, and fennel to the strained pork head cooking liquor. First I vigorously reduced 2 litres to about 1litre, then added a bottle of Aldi sherry that I use for cooking, along with the veg as I wanted a darkish jelly. and reduced to about a litre. Skimmed and strained out the veg. Sets to jelly with no problem, as expected. I separately made another 5 litres with white wine, which produces a much clearer jelly.

1 (2).jpeg
 
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