A new take on the PAUL SELLERS HAND CUT MORTISE JIG.

[Mike]

Why do you think Sellers rejected my (free) offer that he may use my design for his students?

I've worked with others like Mr. Sellers, and it's possible that they share a similar ego trait that results in a "not invented here, not used here" attitude.

 

[BentonTool]

I came up with a related design

Why did I not think of that... reverse the jig so the work is on the bench-top! Brilliant design (as usual for you)!
Darn... now I have to build another jig!

Sellers simply deleted my post from his forum. This is not the first time he has done this - others have complained that he will delete anything which contradicts his authority.

Funny... that is rather rude and suggests he is rather petty. I had no idea.

 

[Tellurian]

I see that PS uses ordinary bevel edged chisels to cut his mortices. Am I right in thinking that mortice chisels are trapezoidal in form in both cross-section and top to bottom and so such a jig might not work with these?

I shall now have to go into the workshop to measure my pig stickers.

 

[BentonTool]

I see that PS uses ordinary bevel edged chisels to cut his mortices. Am I right in thinking that mortice chisels are trapezoidal in form in both cross-section and top to bottom and so such a jig might not work with these?

I shall now have to go into the workshop to measure my pig stickers.

Some are trapezoidal, some are square/rectangular (such as those that Rob Cosman uses and sells).
The jig can still be used, with either style.
All one has to do is make sure the chisel edge is perpendicular to the jig face.

 

[Raymedullary]

P.S uses chisels from Aldi.

 

[RogerS]

Paul Sellers is probably a good woodworker, but his dogmatism re his way of doing things obscures this. And, his wordy delivery encourages sleep.

Secondly, my hands are markedly arthritic at one year off seventy; I'm astonished then that a (presumably) indentured, time-served, City-and-Guilds-possessing, bod, of an age with me, is beating his chisels into hardwood with his mitts??? At least two parts of that last sentence just have to be wrong. Answers on a postcard.

Nothing a Festool Domino can't fix

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

Nothing a Festool Domino can't fix

Tell my bank account....

 

[Cabinetman]

Rather ashamed to say that it’s years since I hand cut a mortice, time was money and I had my massive turn of the Century (previous one) morticer to use. That has been left in my old workshop and so I shall eventually find out how my skills have atrophied since. Suppose it’s just chiselling which I’m still pretty good at lol

 

[RogerS]

Rather ashamed to say that it’s years since I hand cut a mortice, time was money and I had my massive turn of the Century (previous one) morticer to use. That has been left in my old workshop and so I shall eventually find out how my skills have atrophied since. Suppose it’s just chiselling which I’m still pretty good at lol

Funny how 'chiselling' which is a respected skill has been 'bastardised' with the other connotation.

 

[duke]

I am all open to many techniques to wood working , some I agree with some I don't but what do I know as I am a carpenter paying my bills.

 

[thetyreman]

from my experience using hand tools, I've found that I don't like either drilling holes to make it 'easier' it actually makes it harder to remove the waste and also I must use mortise chisels when cutting a mortise joint I have used BE chisels but it gets a bit dodgy when they are thin, like anything below 10mm especially if you are smashing it into white oak, if I was a pro joiner I would definitely use a mortiser machine though, if you've got a loads of motises to cut it has to be done fast, there's no shame in doing that at all and nothing wrong with it.

 

[Pete Maddex]

I like the hand took method of woodworking it’s quiet, apart from mortising, I do use ear defenders if I have a lot to do, or breakout the Domino and get them done quickly.

Pete

 

[BentonTool]

from my experience using hand tools, I've found that I don't like either drilling holes to make it 'easier' it actually makes it harder to remove the waste

I totally agree... that is why I gave up on drilling mortices.
Additionally, I found that the holes introduced inaccuracy.
The chisel seemed to want to follow the path of least resistance, rather than where you want to steer it.

 

[Woodbloke]

Yep, I completely agree. I learnt far more from David Charlesworth and Matt Estlea than I did from Paul Sellers

Sir Dave of Charlesworth comes highly recommended but as SamQ mentioned above, he works at a glacial pace. If you're in need of a Sunday afternoon nap, DC's videos are a good place to start. Matt Estela used to promote stuff for Ax and I met him in the old Basingstoke store some years ago. His online technique seems to be to 'play to the crowd' and although he knows his stuff, I can tolerate him only in very small doses. When I met him at the Ax Basingstoke store he appeared quite surprised; I think my dubious reputation had somewhat preceded me - Rob

 

[BentonTool]

I freehand mortise chisels, however I enjoy coming up with fixtures to help those learning this skill. A few years ago, inspired by Paul Sellers' mortise fixture, I came up with a related design, and sent it to him ... since it was an improvement in that it would be less costly and more efficient. I gave him credit for the basic design. Sellers simply deleted my post from his forum. This is not the first time he has done this - others have complained that he will delete anything which contradicts his authority.

My variation was to use the fixture clamped in a vise but keeping the work piece on the bench top (much less strain on the vise), have a variable fence (make one fixture and not a dozen), and include a built-in hold down (to prevent the work piece moving. An incredibly simple design.

Link to the article: https://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MortisingGuide.html

Why do you think Sellers rejected my (free) offer that he may use my design for his students?

Regards from Perth

Derek

My homage to Derek Cohen (I am a fan!).
In lieu of an entirely new jig, I have managed to bring my humble Paul-Sellers-ish mortising jig into non-vise-destroying compliance with the simple addition of yet more phenolic. I did not even have to obtain new hardware...
This time, I added a sheet of 1/4 inch stock, allowing the conversion of said item into a proper morticing jig.
Now what do I call it? My Derek-Cohen-ish mortising jig?
(Note- I am using UK and Colonial spelling interchangeably in recognition of the multi-cultural representation on this site... )

 

[CStanford]

You can just clamp a block to the reference face, a little in advance of the joint, and use it to sight the chisel.

Unless you REALLY hug the side of the jig, you might find that your mortises are further off plumb than ever. Train your eye.

And, unless the face of the jig lines lines up exactly with one marked cheek of the mortise it is just in the way. It has to be dead-on to provide a reference surface on which the chisel registers.

 

[BentonTool]

Train your eye.

Yes, I have been practicing... getting better...

 

[vaj]

He's not the easiest of personalities/has his vagaries but as most has lots useful to say and attracts interest . Look at the length of this thread...

It depends on the nature of the work but there's potentially quite a bit more going regarding fits and dimensions (the total task) in the case of a high accuracy mortise and tenon - it's more than just a matter of keeping the chisel vertical and of whacking out the material.

There may well be a requirement to locate accurately flat and square outer and end reference faces in the case of both the mortise and tenon so that the outer/show face(s) of the joint end up precisely in the same plane and/or correct location. (a tiny bit of careful correction with a plane may be possible on the show face but....)

I'm entirely of the school of suck it and see and can't claim any pedigree on the subject but my pretty labour intensive DIY approach has been as follows. It'd be great to hear some views on how the total task is done/the outcome is achieved by efficient traditional hand tool means - especially the sequence of work.

I'll cut mortises if i can under a mill drill with an X/Y table using a milling cutter or with a router. Tenons are cut on the spindle moulder or with a router/router table. This because it's tough to be right on size targets getting close but ending up a hair on the 'fat' side. i.e. the requirement to precisely locate and possibly fine tune both mortise and tenon faces still arises.

Presuming it's not just a matter of removing an obvious high spot what has evolved in my case is to precisely flatten and locate the machine cut reference face of the tenon using a (hand) router plane - with if necessary clamped on wood supports. It's a means of maintaining a truly flat face and of very controllably removing a skim of material to place it in the correct location. The back side is left a hair over size.

This may well deliver the required location (an engineering adjustable parallel is a convenient way of checking this - the joint still can't be assembled at this stage. Presuming that too much material has not been removed (glue on a shim time) and the offset is correct/the show faces will line up then it's back to the router plane to finalise the fit at the back of the tenon.

A clamped on guide block (or Sellers/Cohen style guide) and very sharp paring chisel permits fine adjustment of the mortise wall if this turns out to be needed before the fit is finalised - useful especially if the alignment is not perfect. A microscopically flat back on the chisel helps greatly in this situation - the chisel will otherwise need the handle lifted a hair to get it to cut in the plane of the block which may lead to inaccuracy.

It's then (presuming that the machined back face of the mortise is correctly aligned) back to the router plane as above to fine tune the fit via the back face of the tenon.

Thoughts?

 

[TomTrees]

A clamped on guide block (or Sellers/Cohen style guide) and very sharp paring chisel permits fine adjustment of the mortise wall if this is needed - useful especially if the alignment is not perfect. A microscopically flat back on the chisel helps greatly in this situation - the chisel will otherwise need the handle lifted a hair to get it to cut in the plane of the block which may lead to inaccuracy.

I tried such whilst making a shooting board, which lead to much undercutting of the walls...and that was only a shallow trench.
Might be alright for dovetails though, as seen below, not tried that.


All the best
Tom

 

[vaj]

It works fine (as in continues the plane of the guide block down into the mortise - joint pics added in later edit) if the latter is good and deep Tom and the chisel as above - but only when final paring as in taking off only very thin shavings.. A lot of care is needed to hold the back of the chisel flat and tight against the block with one hand while pushing it down with moderate pressure using the other. If there's room checking at intervals with the edge of a small rule flat against the guide block shows what's going on.

The problem in this fine paring case is the reverse of what happens when chopping - the difficulty is to prevent even a very carefully by normal standards sharpened chisel from climbing up out of the cut as a result of a possible microscopic and very shallow (microns deep) sharpening induced 'bevel' on the back.

Getting the back truly flat so that the chisel will behave in this situation isn't easily done on a waterstone no matter how carefully it's flattened - the slurry seems to push under the edge to create this very tiny inaccuracy in the form of a shallow parabolic area extending perhaps 1-2mm back from the edge. (this could be an artefact of my moving the chisel lengthwise across the stone - a different movement might alter this effect)

Whatever the case the difference in behaviour if the back is given a very light touch on a very fine and flat diamond plate (the first light stroke shows up the unwanted 'bevel' as a shiny/untouched area, a couple more and its gone) and finished with a quick rub on carefully flattened waterstones with the slurry washed off is remarkable.

The guide block in the pic which I made for free style use (clamp it down wherever) is a variation on the theme.

The main bevel when chopping as in the case of a dovetail unless it's taken very slowly will tend to push the chisel back in. A big part of the block's job there is to establish the line of cut. Some moderate undercut on a dovetail after that is to a point presumably not regarded as a problem..

 

[TomTrees]

I'd prefer the "tenting" method (where practical) for any paring jobs, and such an "aid" doesn't lend itself to...
but could see the appeal for that jig used instead of knife marking basslines, but not used beyond that.

All the best
Tom

 

[Andy Kev.]

I think it worth pointing out that an absolute beginner, working on his/her own would take a different view of the likes of Paul Sellers and David Charlesworth than someone with a lot of experience and perhaps professional training.

It wasn't until I took up woodworking (as opposed to doing the odd DIY fix) that I realised that I had definitely never sawn a straight line in my life. I'd also never used a chisel before. My first project - the simplest of bedside tables - just wouldn't/couldn't fit together. I later realised that the tenon shoulders were curved. Fortunately at that time I stumbled on a DVD by DC about using chisels. A week later I found PS in the internet. Having watched them both, the transformation was astonishing. Take 2 of the same project really did fit together but it is still ropey (I keep it as a reminder).

Both of those gentlemen take the beginner by the hand and walk him through the minefield. Watching PS shows you the steps to take. The forensic approach of DC could probably get you a side qualification as a brain surgeon. Very quickly you learn from other people that there are at least ten different ways of doing anything and two or three of them will be "right" i.e. judged as optimal by you, for any one task.

Both of them are a godsend for beginners. They're probably a provocation for old sweats.

BTW, I too am constantly shocked by PS battering wood which is held in the vice as the case for the bench top seems overwhelming to me. OTH, I look at the quality of his results and I'm not going to question him. I'm just not going to copy him in that instance. I imagine that he would be very relaxed about that.

 

[Mike]

During my weeks with David C, one phrase I remember him repeating was something like "Don't try to be perfect. Strive to be precise." I looked for courses in the UK that were at least a week long so I could maximize my time and reduce the number of flights between the UK and Germany. I found lots of people offering weekend courses, but then I discovered David's website and contacted him. After a few email exchanges and phone calls, he agreed to rearrange his course schedule to allow me to start with the Tool Tuning course, followed by the Dovetail course. I paid him for both courses and booked a room in the adjacent B&B.

Prior to attending David's course, my woodworking experience was carpentry during my youth. The precision needed then was nothing compared to joinery. When building houses and barns from lumber harvested from the site, close enough was good enough because the joints would never be seen as soon as the walls, floors, and ceilings were covered.

My first attempt at a dovetail joint was not very good, and David didn't waste any time pointing out the flaws and showing me how to correct them. Near the end of the week, he showed me a small box with hand cut dovetail corners that Rob Cosman made for him. The box looked great to me, and then David pointed out the six areas where Rob used thin wafers wedged into the joints to correct mistakes when he cut the pins.

I am confident that I would have never been able to make these dovetails without face to face training, no matter how many videos I watched. These are two of the five or six dovetail joints I made during the week. They aren't perfect, but the casual observer might not notice the flaws. I have similar samples from the Mortise and Tenon course, but can't find any photos of them.





During the last course in March 2020, as the world was coming to an end, David asked what I would like to see in a new course. I told him I would like to attend a "Jigs and Fixtures" course and leave with a collection of the same jigs and fixtures I used during the four courses in his shop. Sadly, this never happened.

As a beginner, any device that can assist in making the learning curve steeper would be appreciated, even if the concept upsets the traditional apprenticeship model. At my age, I don't have the time to work as a Master's minion for years to learn the trade. I did that for one summer working for a cabinet maker when I was 13. All I learned that summer was how to fetch coffee, sweep up sawdust, and despise old gits. The following summer, my parents pawned me off to a house builder, and I enjoyed working for him for the next four years before leaving for the Army.

 

[vaj]

Nice work Mike. David Charlesworth did a lot to both communicate and normalise the precision that has always been necessary in fine woodworking.

A follow on from the usefulness of learning from an experienced person using effective methods - and of following this with lots of practice.

One of the peculiarities of woodworking (and of most crafts) seems to be that when people write about it in the commercial media they tend to describe the 'what' in blingy/marketing oriented terms but rarely the fine detail of the 'how'. There's a lot in it that's not easily transmitted by the written word, but this is especially the case now in these days of tiny attention spans and of 'everybody's opinion being as good as anybody else's...'

There's quite a gulf between the what and the how in doing fine work with chisels - and then there's practice...

 

[kirkpoore1]

Late to the conversation, but I'll weigh in. I watched the videos and was most intrigued by using the routers to flatten the tenon. I would have used a rabbet plane to get the tenon close before going to the router, but his way works--if you have two router planes. The mortise jig is interesting and I can see it as an aid to people learning to chop mortises. After a while, though, it probably would slow down a person too much.

As for Sellars' presentation style, I wasn't put off by it at all. At least on these videos he was basically saying "Try it, you'll like it", though of course in other presentations he could be way off. Again, he's using to teaching new folks and you don't want to get too bogged down in alternatives when you do that.

A few people have hinted at it, but I think the importance of practice needs to be emphasized. M&T joints are just like dovetails in that way--the more you do the faster and better you'll get. They will teach you to "see" perpendicular. And if you are getting enough practice to get that speed and consistent perpendicular mortises, then you can probably benefit from real mortising chisels and it will be worth finding some. I love my pigstickers but they're overkill for the occasional user.

Kirk