Bathroom & chimney breast

[billybuntus]

Hello all,

I'm due to start our bathroom in the new year.

It's just dawned in me that I need to remove a small (2 feet wide) diagonal breast from the bathroom. The breast in the bathroom slopes up into the roof space (bathroom is flat roof and the original part of the house is stone rubble and pitched roof) then seems to be pretty much inside the wall (mostly rendered badly inside the loft space.

The section I wish to remove already has had a hole in it and some point and is inside a very grotty cupoard. The bricks are handmades and I don't believe the section I wish to remove is structural. It doesn't directly support a large section of brick or stone work. I'd be looking to cut out the handmades then fill in the chimney void. Leaving ground floor breast intact.

I'll post some pics later but just wondered if anyone had tackled anything similar and supported using gallow brackets.

And a happy new year to all when it lands.

 

[Mike G]

I won't comment substantially until I see photos, but I often ask people in these circumstances to consider removing the entire chimney. It's usually much easier than just propping up a remnant bit of useless brickwork.

 

[billybuntus]

I won't comment substantially until I see photos, but I often ask people in these circumstances to consider removing the entire chimney. It's usually much easier than just propping up a remnant bit of useless brickwork.

It's tricky as the bit in the loft is very much part of the gable wall (detached) as is much of the breast in the bathroom. I'll get pics.

 

[billybuntus]

Inside awful bathroom cupboard and the bit of breast I'm wanting to remove. As the doors opened looking into the abyss.

Close up from the same angle. As you can see someones been in here before judging by the stunning brickup effort. The chimney and the other that runs up to the top at the center of the house are totally blocked off.
Effectively this goes diagonally up the ridge of the gable to the stack.

This is a shot looking down into the bit of the cupboard your can't see in the first pic. The bit of batten and boarding is the partition wall.

For size.

This is a shot looking down over.

Downstairs.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Can we et some photos of what's going on above that cupboard, in the loft space?

Cheers
Mark

 

[Doug]

I took the rear chimney breast out of my kitchen & bedroom above of my present home, in the roof space I removed the first 3' & then had a mate welded me together some gallow brackets which were raw bolted to the wall either side of the breast & a large section of angle iron placed across them to support the remaining brickwork.
That was 14 years ago & its held up very well, I'd add that I didn't have many options as this was one four breasts that converge into one large chimney, so complete removal wasn't an option.

 

[billybuntus]

I think gallow brackets in the loft under a course of bricks could be an option. From what I can work out most of the load is taken from the wall as a mass. The chimney blends into the gable wall in the loft space. I would think removing the breast in the bathroom then bricking up the cavity would be sufficient. The brackets would be really belt and braces.

I gather I need to let building control know before I tackle this so I'm wanting a sound plan to put to him so he doesn't decide I need a 10 metre girder across the ceiling

Looking in the loft to where the chimney flues converge. brick part to the right is the flue in question.

This close up shows the base of the brickwork and a 6 " recess which is the stone (stepped slightly)

The diagonal line of the flue would of followed the original house roofline. The bathroom is single width brick dropped onto the top of a rubble stone wall (quite literally). I have a picture of the external wall pre render which I'll dig out.

Found them. We section I want to remove is along the diagonal brick line where it's been dropped onto the stone.

 

[billybuntus]

Last day of my holidays today so I decided to phone building control first thing this morning. He came out and said to pull that section of the chimney out then he'd come back and give guidance.

He wasn't worried about it and said it's likely he'd advise just to cap both ends and tie the remaining parts back into the wall. It cost me £115 to fill in the form but could have been a lot worse.

I'll get on with it next week once I finish up along another house. :eusa-dance:

 

[TrimTheKing]

Result, well done. :eusa-clap: :eusa-dance:

Cheers
Mark

 

[billybuntus]

Started removing the chimney on friday night after work. 2 hours saw me get a few courses out.

Back on it saturday morning. I got down to a course below floor level.

I'm hoping I'll be allowed to drop 2 concrete lintels across the chimney (left to right as you look into it) then cement a piece of stone across it and build a skin of brickwork up to ceiling level. This will ensure I don't disturb the ceiling line downstairs.
I think I should also bring two lintels across at ceiling level just for belt and braces.

Due to having two pipes in the way and working inside a small cupboard it was challenging but the older I get the less I lose my temper due to frustration so it was a very calm and considered affair.

I also need to climb down into this rather tight hole and clear out debris which seems to have accumulated.

The whole chimney flue is very well executed inside considering it's all random stone. The also used to smooth and seal the lining with lime which you can see has failed and dropped down into the hole.

I'm hoping mr inspector will come out Tuesday morning and agree a way forward so I can get it closed up and get the cupboard knocked out.

This is what the roof space looks like. I've removed the comedy 1" fiberglass insulation.

Hopefully an update after Tuesday.

 

[RogerS]

Good progress there! Why do you want to empty out the stuff from that small area? I'd be tempted to leave given the limited access.

 

[billybuntus]

Good progress there! Why do you want to empty out the stuff from that small area? I'd be tempted to leave given the limited access.

In the room downstairs (my room) a yellow tide mark appears across the wall just above the brick soldier course across the middle of the chimney breast. It's nothing major but it is irritating having to paint it every year.

It obviously staining induced from the pile of rubble in there. It would be nice to have one less problem but clearing the void out.

 

[RogerS]

Good progress there! Why do you want to empty out the stuff from that small area? I'd be tempted to leave given the limited access.

In the room downstairs (my room) a yellow tide mark appears across the wall just above the brick soldier course across the middle of the chimney breast. It's nothing major but it is irritating having to paint it every year.

It obviously staining induced from the pile of rubble in there. It would be nice to have one less problem but clearing the void out.

Understand where you;re coming from. Zinsser however make a superb range of paints and have an excellent free booklet on painting over unwanted stains. Might be worth looking at as an easier alternative.

Just don't like the idea of our members getting stuck inside chimneys!

 

[billybuntus]

Good progress there! Why do you want to empty out the stuff from that small area? I'd be tempted to leave given the limited access.

In the room downstairs (my room) a yellow tide mark appears across the wall just above the brick soldier course across the middle of the chimney breast. It's nothing major but it is irritating having to paint it every year.

It obviously staining induced from the pile of rubble in there. It would be nice to have one less problem but clearing the void out.

Understand where you;re coming from. Zinsser however make a superb range of paints and have an excellent free booklet on painting over unwanted stains. Might be worth looking at as an easier alternative.

Just don't like the idea of our members getting stuck inside chimneys!

Already tried all that zinnser offer including watertite. I'll be dropping a ladder in before I delve down there. And might even don a hard hat. I wouldn't usually but I don't fancy being knocked out by a fall brick etc then being stuck in a hole.

 

[Mike G]

......... I'll be dropping a ladder in before I delve down there. And might even don a hard hat. I wouldn't usually but I don't fancy being knocked out by a fall brick etc then being stuck in a hole.

Just in case, pass your camera to someone else. I wouldn't want to miss out on those photos!

 

[billybuntus]

......... I'll be dropping a ladder in before I delve down there. And might even don a hard hat. I wouldn't usually but I don't fancy being knocked out by a fall brick etc then being stuck in a hole.

Just in case, pass your camera to someone else. I wouldn't want to miss out on those photos!

lol, That's the sort of sympathetic talk I'm used too

Looking forward to getting it closed up and insulating the walls and ceiling. Floors gonna have to come up as well as I plan to put karndean down.

 

[Commander]

Looks like good progress! I have to commend you on your work, it would freak me out to do this kind of thing! Tight spaces, ancient bricks and dust and all kinds of rubbish....

 

[billybuntus]

Well, the chimneys blocked up and signed off by building control. I'll get some pics up over the weekend.

I'm currently framing the wall ready to receive a shower which is on order.

I'm going to beef up the floor joists and want to run it by someone more intelligent than me.

The joists measure 110mm x 75mm at 600 centre across a 2.8 M span. The rooms 2.8M X 2.8M there are 5 joists across the floor. Two of which are almost into the wall or sat very near.

The ceiling below is exposed joists with plasterboard in between. The joists have 38mm by 18mm roofing laths attached to them and the plasterboard screwed to them below. I don't want to disturb the ceiling and cause work in the room below. I have enough to do and I completed that room last year.

I'm looking to sister the joists. To do this the best method I can come up with is to space out above the laths then bolt a joist full depth to ceiling through the existing joists.

Above the lath is a 50mm gap. So 50mm 6mm steel plate drilled at 16 inch centers, 12mm of plywood. This would pack out and be flush to the full depth of the joist. I'd then drop in a 90mm x 75mm wide c16 timber alongside and bolt up. I'd epoxy all the layers together as well as bolting through.

I could do this on both sides of the joists so the centers would be reduced to something like 17" centres. I plan to lay 1" WBP ply over the floor so I really need to reduce the centers.

The floor also has a touch of bounce which I'd like to remedy.

Nothings every straight forward in my life Any thoughts?

 

[Mike G]

Wouldn't it be simpler to put additional c.90mm deep joists* midway between the existing? This would halve the distance between joists, so helping out with the ply (which, incidentally, will do a great deal to increase the stiffness of your floor). I would also suggest you do solid blocking as best you can. This stiffens up a floor considerably too. Your suggestion sounds a real pain, as well as working only on the compression-side of the existing joists.


*I assume you have 38 + 50 mm of depth to play with?

 

[billybuntus]

Wouldn't it be simpler to put additional c.90mm deep joists* midway between the existing? This would halve the distance between joists, so helping out with the ply (which, incidentally, will do a great deal to increase the stiffness of your floor). I would also suggest you do solid blocking as best you can. This stiffens up a floor considerably too. Your suggestion sounds a real pain, as well as working only on the compression-side of the existing joists.


*I assume you have 38 + 50 mm of depth to play with?

It would be I thought it would be the strongest solution. Although I do seem to always over complicate things.

Solid blocking? noggins?

 

[billybuntus]

Finished chimney block up.

Well, managed to do a bit over the weekend. Followed mikes simple view and made life easier for myself.

Used two 38x89 to reduce the joist centres to around 300. Used the fein multitool to cut the boards over the joists. Both joists went under the toilet or sink just for added fun. Two down two to go. I'll disconnect the bath and do the other two joists this weekend.

The biggest challenge is cleaning the room up and making sure the missus can get in the bath on time. We aren't posh and only have one bathroom.


Here are some pictures. Nothing to write home about and it looks like I've done very little but there's a few hours work there.

I cleared the floor out dropped the pair of timbers in on joist hangers then screwed floorboard to the existing joists and new timbers to get level then fix the joist hangers to the stonework. Pretty challenging trying to find a fixing in 100+ year old lime and limestone.

The timbers will be drilled and receive m12 rod bolted through. I need to borrow a 90 degree drill to drill out. In te mean time I've screwed through the timbers. I was planning to drop steel plate alongside but once the noggins are in and the plys down it should be 99% solid.

Then onto the next one....Much the same..Sink unit cut out.

Obligatory cat shot (Ernie). He seems to have defied the laws of physics to fit in that basket.

Every wall is out of square so lot's of packing out. I've moved some of the pipework and I'm ready for a radiator so best order one.

Shower should be here in the next week so I can get set out.

Any opinions on using 18mm vs 25mm WBP ply for the floor? I picked up a small piece of 25mm ply today and it put into perspective just how substantial it is. 25mm weighs in at 45kg a sheet :shock: Whereas 18mm is 32kg a sheet.

Over.

 

[Mike G]

18mm is fine, and there is a t&g version available in easily handled sizes. Just stagger the joins. I assumed you needed 25 for some threshold detail or other.

 

[billybuntus]

18mm is fine, and there is a t&g version available in easily handled sizes. Just stagger the joins. I assumed you needed 25 for some threshold detail or other.

I hadn't even thought about the join. It's carpet on the landing and there's currently a difference anyway but yes your right I don't want to make it worse.

I best check before I create a further step down.