Chairs - Done!

[NickM]

As I've mentioned in a few other posts over the last few weeks/months, 2025's big job for me is to make half a dozen chairs to go with the table I finished in the Autumn. I'm currently at the design phase and thought I'd share where I've got to.

The first decision is that I want to do a jointed chair. That's the kind of woodwork I do. I don't have a lathe or the kit/know-how to do pole chairs, windsor chairs etc.

I popped in to Edward Barnsley a few weeks ago to have a look at their completed machine room extension (which is fantastic) and to the chance to pick brains about chairs. I came away a little bit overwhelmed but with lots of food for thought!

I had wondered about having a go at something like this which they make at EB. Custard has also shared some info on this type of chair in the other place.



I think it's a stunning chair. The really interesting feature is that the rear legs are rotated outwards. That gives a lovely shape because the curvature of the legs also gives an attractive splay in the chair back when they are rotated in this way. However, it creates some problems. In particular, the side rails and back rail come into the rear legs from opposite sides rather than at right angles which is what happens in a conventional chair. That does weaken joint the most critical joint a bit and as my chairs will be used every day, I'm worried about that.

Having looked at some other chair designs, I worked out that I could still get a somewhat splayed back by tilting the legs outwards. That adds more angles to the joinery, but I think that's manageable, and it means I can stick with a more conventional design.

This was the first sketch I did to visualise what I was thinking about:



I decided to draw it in CAD to try to get a better feel for what it would look like and, in due course, to help think about how the joinery would work. (I also had my son, a design student at Loughborough, at home over Christmas to help me claw my way up the Fusion 360 learning curve!). This is the first effort:







I quite like it, but feel it perhaps looks a little too utilitarian? This is the current version (minus backbars which I find really hard to do in CAD - I couldn't even manage to avoid having one in the middle which I've read is a bad idea as the sitter's spine is right against it!):







I think this is looking a lot better. I introduced some shape in the front legs, a shaped front rail, a curve in the side profile of the side rails, and a "serpentine" shape to the side rails as viewed from above. The rear legs and crest rail still look a bit clunky in my view, but I think I can finesse that (although it might be easier to do that in real life than in CAD given my limited abilities and the fact that my son is now back at uni!).

I think this design has got some mileage. I'll have a bit more of a play with it, but the next stage will be to make a VERY rough (e.g. nailed together) full size model. The purpose of that will be to check the fundamentals of the dimensions of the design.

After that, I'll have to figure out how to make it...

 

[Robert]

If your making involves templates I'd say it is worth persevering with the CAD as it can give you full size prints from which you can make templates.

I just went to a furniture store and sat in all the dining chairs until I found the most comfortable one. Then I asked if I could take one home to see how it looked at my table and for a deposit they agreed. I made templates from the chair by drawing round the curved parts then sticking the template to MDF for template making. (was back in wh1 times but I reposted some old pictures here - https://www.thewoodhaven2.co.uk/threads/pictures-from-an-old-wip-dining-chair-test-and-batch.1055/ ) Edit - also have to say this reminds me that I sent a set of templates to Bob Minchin and he made 2 dining chairs the same profile. Miss you Bob.

I have worked from sketchup drawn templates for garden chairs and it does work out.

 

[Mike G]

I'll be doing 8 chairs in the next few months, and the contrast could hardly be starker. It'll be fun watching you do yours.

 

[NickM]

If your making involves templates I'd say it is worth persevering with the CAD as it can give you full size prints from which you can make templates.

I just went to a furniture store and sat in all the dining chairs until I found the most comfortable one. Then I asked if I could take one home to see how it looked at my table and for a deposit they agreed. I made templates from the chair by drawing round the curved parts then sticking the template to MDF for template making. (was back in wh1 times but I reposted some old pictures here - https://www.thewoodhaven2.co.uk/threads/pictures-from-an-old-wip-dining-chair-test-and-batch.1055/ ) Edit - also have to say this reminds me that I sent a set of templates to Bob Minchin and he made 2 dining chairs the same profile. Miss you Bob.

I have worked from sketchup drawn templates for garden chairs and it does work out.

Thanks. I'll certainly be making templates in due course. The CAD will help, but I'll do full size drawings too.

 

[NickM]

I'll be doing 8 chairs in the next few months, and the contrast could hardly be starker. It'll be fun watching you do yours.

Likewise Mike!

 

[Yojevol]

You've reminded me of the dining suite I made for a. Client some 15 years ago:-

There were 6 chairs made. This was designed from scratch on TurboCad but the basic dimensions were derived from a manufactured suite which we owned at the time.
If you can persevere with Fusion it really becomes useful when designing jigs. Full size prints are great for producing profile templates. I had an A3 printer at the time so it was a case of sticking several sheets together to get a full drawing.
I had several meetings with the client before the final design was agreed but it took a full size mock-up to convince them.
Good luck with it and keep us informed. You'll find it a hugely satisfying exercise.
Brian
Brian

 

[Cabinetman]

I think the EB design scores well with me as it uses curved rails to the back 3 sides of the seat, to my mind this is also the strength of the chair in that the curved sections come together on either side of the back leg (as you said) thus allowing for the wonderful angle of the back and back legs. Personally I don’t see this as a weak point at all, and I would certainly pay homage to the designer by reproducing it.
Certainly an ambitious project Nick which I will follow eagerly.
Ian
Ps. I always am at pains to be positive about others work and only say something critical when I think that to not say something would be detrimental in the long run. So I hope you won’t take this amiss.
I feel that your treatment of the back legs is an inspired solution to give the upper back of the chair a good angle, but unfortunately it results in the footprint of the back legs being narrow which I think will possibly give the chair an unsafe feel, particularly should anyone have the nerve to ever lean back on your hard work.
I think chair design is one of the most difficult things to get right and if you weren’t thinking of it I would recommend a mock up.
I sat in a chair just yesterday, a Windsor style with arms, commercially produced, and it was just all wrong and unpleasant to sit in.

 

[Mike G]

I really like your (pencil) drawing style!

I would ask you to look carefully at the cushion you'll be sitting on. Putting that between/ inside the seat rails, rather than on top, is a big risk. The danger is that the sitters' legs will be resting on wood, and that could be quite uncomfortable after a while. Given that a dinner party guest might be sitting in the seat for 4 hours or more, that would be problematic. I suggest that your mock up should include the cushion, and should be strong enough to cope with being used for a few months. I've got a list of about a dozen changes pinned to the back of my mock-up, which shows the value of making one and sitting on it at length.

I particularly like the slope of your seat, which is something I'm struggling with. However, a relaxed seating position such as yours increases the danger to the hamstrings of your fellow diners from an exposed front apron.

 

[NickM]

I think the EB design scores well with me as it uses curved rails to the back 3 sides of the seat, to my mind this is also the strength of the chair in that the curved sections come together on either side of the back leg (as you said) thus allowing for the wonderful angle of the back and back legs. Personally I don’t see this as a weak point at all, and I would certainly pay homage to the designer by reproducing it.
Certainly an ambitious project Nick which I will follow eagerly.
Ian
Ps. I always am at pains to be positive about others work and only say something critical when I think that to not say something would be detrimental in the long run. So I hope you won’t take this amiss.
I feel that your treatment of the back legs is an inspired solution to give the upper back of the chair a good angle, but unfortunately it results in the footprint of the back legs being narrow which I think will possibly give the chair an unsafe feel, particularly should anyone have the nerve to ever lean back on your hard work.
I think chair design is one of the most difficult things to get right and if you weren’t thinking of it I would recommend a mock up.
I sat in a chair just yesterday, a Windsor style with arms, commercially produced, and it was just all wrong and unpleasant to sit in.

Thanks Ian. Not taken amiss at all. This is all new to me, so it's very useful to have input.

It was the guys at EB who said those chairs probably wouldn't be a great design for something that is going to get a bit of abuse. I hope we won't abuse them(!), but will be using them every day so I'm a bit wary. I'm also a bit concerned that I wouldn't be able to make them! Perhaps most importantly, I decided that I didn't want to largely copy someone else's design. I nearly did that with the table, but was glad that I came up with something from scratch (albeit which takes inspiration from other designs).

I think the strength issue (which I definitely don't want to overplay because it's clearly a very successful design) is that the side and back rail tenons are competing for the same space (with priority given to the side rail joint as that needs to be strongest). With a more conventional ninety degree arrangement, you can have a large tenon on the side rail. I'm actually contemplating a wedged through tenon which seems common on some antique furniture (I've been reading some FWW articles on Queen Anne/Chippendale chairs which had wedged tenons).

I'm not too worried about the chairs feeling "tippy". I've still got over 300mm width at the foot of the back legs which I think is a wide enough base. The seats on most chairs will taper towards the back so even with vertical back legs the footprint is usually narrower at the back than the front. Tilting the legs does seem quite a traditional approach. As mentioned in my post, a rough mock up will be the next stage and this is one of the aspects of the design I'll be checking through that process.

 

[Mike G]

.....I'm not too worried about the chairs feeling "tippy". I've still got over 300mm width at the foot of the back legs which I think is a wide enough base....

That really is narrow, Nick. My reference are Ercol chairs, and they're just under 400 wide at the back legs. That's a third wider than yours.

 

[NickM]

I really like your (pencil) drawing style!

I would ask you to look carefully at the cushion you'll be sitting on. Putting that between/ inside the seat rails, rather than on top, is a big risk. The danger is that the sitters' legs will be resting on wood, and that could be quite uncomfortable after a while. Given that a dinner party guest might be sitting in the seat for 4 hours or more, that would be problematic. I suggest that your mock up should include the cusion, and should be strong enough to cope with being used for a few months. I've got a list of about a dozen changes pinned to the back of my mock-up, which shows the value of making one and sitting on it at length.

I particularly like the slope of your seat, which is something I'm struggling with. However, a relaxed seating position such as yours increases the danger to the hamstrings of your fellow diners from an exposed front apron.

Thanks Mike. I wish I could draw a lot better than I do!

I can see your point about the cushion, but drop in cushions are incredibly common. We've had them for 25 years on our current chairs and I've never had a problem (although we could probably do with some new foam). In fact, I sat on one at my desk for over 8 hours yesterday whilst trying to get the CAD software to do what I wanted it to and, during lockdown when I was still lawyering, did ridiculously long hours on the same chair.

Having said that, my wife doesn't care for them quite as much. I think it comes down to the dimensions of the sitter. If you're taller, the front edge is less of an issue because the backs of the upper leg rise slightly towards the front. If you're shorter with your feet dangling in the air (to exaggerate the problem) it would be more of a problem. I'm planning to make the new chairs a tad shorter than the current ones which should be better for my wife and daughter. There will also be some kind of roundover/bevel to avoid the sharp edge that our current chairs have. My wife will be doing the upholstery so hopefully we can get a nice shape in the cushion which will help too. I agree that the mock-up will need to test this.

Thanks for your input.

 

[NickM]

That really is narrow, Nick. My reference are Ercol chairs, and they're just under 400 wide at the back legs. That's a third wider than yours.

I don't think it's extreme though. I've been reading Jeff Miller's book on Chairmaking & Design and he has gone as low as 240mm. Our dining room chairs are 340mm and they feel completely planted. The front legs also contribute to the stability. I don't think it will feel like a shooting stick(!), but the mock-up will tell me for certain.

 

[NickM]

You've reminded me of the dining suite I made for a. Client some 15 years ago:-
View attachment 31182
There were 6 chairs made. This was designed from scratch on TurboCad but the basic dimensions were derived from a manufactured suite which we owned at the time.
If you can persevere with Fusion it really becomes useful when designing jigs. Full size prints are great for producing profile templates. I had an A3 printer at the time so it was a case of sticking several sheets together to get a full drawing.
I had several meetings with the client before the final design was agreed but it took a full size mock-up to convince them.
Good luck with it and keep us informed. You'll find it a hugely satisfying exercise.
Brian
Brian

Thanks Brian. That table and chairs looks amazing!

 

[NickM]

I really like your (pencil) drawing style!

I would ask you to look carefully at the cushion you'll be sitting on. Putting that between/ inside the seat rails, rather than on top, is a big risk. The danger is that the sitters' legs will be resting on wood, and that could be quite uncomfortable after a while. Given that a dinner party guest might be sitting in the seat for 4 hours or more, that would be problematic. I suggest that your mock up should include the cushion, and should be strong enough to cope with being used for a few months. I've got a list of about a dozen changes pinned to the back of my mock-up, which shows the value of making one and sitting on it at length.

I particularly like the slope of your seat, which is something I'm struggling with. However, a relaxed seating position such as yours increases the danger to the hamstrings of your fellow diners from an exposed front apron.

Mike, another thing I should clarify on the cushion is that the rebate in the chair is the same depth as the plywood base on which the cushion would be made (12mm ply). In that sense, the cushion would be "on top of" the chair.

Are you planning a fully upholstered seat along the lines of our dining room chairs?

 

[Steve Maskery]

Mock ups are an excellent use of time.
I've made two sets of dining chairs in my time, 6 and 8, and a few singles along the way. For both sets I made a mock up out of scrap, just screwed together, then a prototype with proper joints so I new what I was letting myself in for. It saved me so much heartache further down the road.

 

[AJB Temple]

Very interesting thread. I love the EB design.

Chairs is one area where I really feel the joints, especially to the back legs, should be discreetly over engineered. Chairs get abused. Not by you - but by careless guests who tip back on them. This was brought home to me recently where we catered for a group. One fat bloke persisted in tipping back on a chair. Antique Edwardian rosewood in this case. It caused the side mouldings to pop off. When people switched round, he did it again on a modern fully upholstered chair designed for restaurant use, and managed to break the rear joints. He actually thought it was funny. The host less so when given the bill.

Obesity is getting commoner and I fear for chair safety....

It makes me think that chairs should be designed specifically to withstand both tipping and more weight, as it is common abuse. The other design factor is what makes people want to lean back on chairs - is it something about the ergonomics which makes them want to do it?

We have three types of dining chairs - largely by accident. One set is fully upholstered including the backs, so that all framework is totally hidden. This is not what you want, I know, but it has the advantage that they can be made very robustly. The set we mainly use is a modern design where the joints are reinforced with a bolt and clamp system. You would think this would be a strong design, but in reality I have to tighten the joints occasionally.

The Edwardian ones appear to be a Brazilian mahogany structure with rosewood decoration applied (it's thick - not veneer). They are very strong except that the applied rosewood can be broken off if the chair is stressed. I've got one to repair so I will post a picture when I have chance, and measurements, and jointing method.

 

[Woodbloke]

Very interesting thread. I love the EB design.

One fat bloke persisted in tipping back on a chair. Antique Edwardian rosewood in this case. It caused the side mouldings to pop off. When people switched round, he did it again on a modern fully upholstered chair designed for restaurant use, and managed to break the rear joints. He actually thought it was funny. The host less so when given the bill.

That should be a hanging offence or at least a flogging - Rob

 

[Mike G]

Are you planning a fully upholstered seat along the lines of our dining room chairs?

View attachment 31185

Partly. The cushioning will go to the outer edges of the seat as per your photo, but the upholstery (at the moment) will extend down onto the apron but leave it partially exposed, with the edge of the upholstery being secured by upholstery nails.

 

[Pete Maddex]

Here are mine.

The maquette was made from soft wood and long screws, it showed me the seat angle needed changing and the back needed a curve.
It well worth knocking one up.
Xmas Chair maquette and finished one by Pete Maddex, on Flickr


Pete

 

[Cabinetman]

One tip I have learned about upholstery - the foam type, is to have quite a firm layer of foam with a thinner more comfortable layer on top.

Nick you said you were unsure how to make the EB chair, also that with the side and back rails coming together head on instead of at right angles you thought it might be a weak point, well maybe the way to get around both problems is to make the back and two sides rails in one curved laminated piece, just the best way to then fasten that to the back legs I haven’t thought about as yet.
Ian

 

[Mike G]

.......I had wondered about having a go at something like this which they make at EB. Custard has also shared some info on this type of chair in the other place.

View attachment 31174

On a rare foray onto Facebook I found an image of Magdalen College dining hall, which reminded me instantly of you.

 

[AJB Temple]

Wow, that's changed! I wonder if they kept the old tables and long benches. The chairs look stylish and robust but they don't really "go" do they in this old hall.

 

[Mike G]

They surely must have kept the old ones. I dislike the tables and chairs in that setting. They just look too modern to me.

 

[Cabinetman]

Looks like they kept the refectory tables, but yes I agree - in that setting the chairs look too modern, maybe it’s the colour as well.
Don’t dislike them at all, just not Baronial enough.
Sorry Mike I very much doubt that they kept them, may even have filled a skip with them!

 

[meccarroll]

I must say I like the design of the chair with all the curves especially on the back, what a nice shape to catch the eye. I have made a few free standing cabinets park benches etc over the years but only one chair and it took me by surprise just how many angles there are in the joints just about every joint has a slightly different angle. A chair, to me, seems to be one of the most complex aspects of furniture to make. Good luck.

 

[NickM]

On a rare foray onto Facebook I found an image of Magdalen College dining hall, which reminded me instantly of you.

Although the aesthetic design of those chairs is very similar to the one I showed a photo of, they're made very differently. I've seen "under the bonnet" but don't know all the details. The gist is that there's some CNCd ply involved. That was mainly to make the construction capable of being scaled up so that 100s of chairs could be made, but they're also stronger to cope with the demands of drunken students. Clever stuff.

 

[NickM]

They surely must have kept the old ones. I dislike the tables and chairs in that setting. They just look too modern to me.

I'm not sure what they would have replaced but I suspect it was long benches. I was at a different college in Oxford and we had benches but they've been replaced with chairs.

Although benches are bullet proof so ideal for students, chairs are a lot more versatile for external dinners etc.

 

[AJB Temple]

Agreed. I think these changes in the colleges are driven by commercial use now. I wasn't at Magdelen either, but have dined there a good few times years ago and I think they had much more substantial tables too. Would be surprising if the old furniture had been skipped as the new chairs for the main hall (there are at least 4 dining areas at Magdelen including a spectacular gallery) were made by the Barnsley workshop and they would have advised. Linky: https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/magdalen-college-oxford/

 

[NickM]

Enough drawing/CAD for the time being. Time to make something.

The first step was to visit my local artisan timber yard. You may have heard of it. It's called Wickes. I skipped the fancy planed jonery timber and went straight to the "character" boards and picked out these beauties:



I did full size drawings - plan view, side view and front view. From those I could take various angles and dimensions. I did the drawings on 9mm MDF and cut up the side view drawing to make a template for the leg curve.

I didn't take any photos of the process/components, but I did most of the joinery with dominos and eventually managed to produce this:









So that's one done. Just five to go...

No, it's a VERY rough prototype of course. I built it to test the overall dimensions, basic comfort and stability. Aside from the curve of the back, which is very relevant to overall dimensions and comfort, this doesn't include any of the shaping I plan for the actual chairs. A thing of beauty it is not!

We'll continue to use the prototype for a while, but here are a few initial thoughts we've drawn from it:

1. It seems to be comfortable. The seat and back angles (both of which are more than our current chairs) seem good. They give the chairs a slightly more relaxed position when leaning back. I think I like that. When actually eating, I wouldn't sit with my back against the chair back, but it's nice to feel a bit more relaxed if sitting around the table for coffee or drinks etc.
2. They're a little too low. I made them about 15mm lower than our current chairs, but I think they need to come back up to the current height. I'll add some blocks to the legs to test this.
3. I'm going to shorten the seat a bit. This isn't for comfort reasons, but to make the chair take up a bit less front-to-back space because we have a wall to contend with on one side of the table. The curve of the back legs means this chair is, front-to-back, deeper than the current chairs. I think I can shorten the seat a bit without affecting comfort. It's harder to test the impact of this, but I might hack 15mm off the front of the prototype (although I can't remember where I put the dominos so that might destroy the leg to front rail joint!).
4. Stability is absolutely fine.

Although I didn't build the prototype to consider the aesthetics of the chair in detail, I think I'd like to have a bit more back splay. I think I can do three things to help with that:

1. Tilt the legs a bit more. The chair is very stable so I'm not worried about the rear feet being closer together. However, I might look at decreasing the taper of the seat shape a bit to partly offset the tilt (I know that reduces the "splay" of the back from the seat upwards, but it still results in a wider crest rail which is what I really want).
2. I could make the rear legs a bit longer from the seat up. I don't want to overdo that because one of the reasons for making these chairs is that we don't like our current "tall back" chairs, but I think I can go a bit taller.
3. In the CAD drawing, when viewed from the front, I tapered the legs on both sides (I didn't bother doing any tapering on the prototype). My plan now is to put all of the taper on the inside of the back legs. I think that will give the impression of there being more splay. I need to decide what to do with the bottom portion of the rear legs - i.e. do I still taper both sides or just one?

The next step will be to build another CAD model to incorporate these changes.

 

[AndyT]

Thanks for sharing all this with us. There's so much mental and creative effort that goes into making chairs that are properly functional and also look good! (I'm sure yours will be excellent.)

 

[NickM]

Thanks for sharing all this with us. There's so much mental and creative effort that goes into making chairs that are properly functional and also look good! (I'm sure yours will be excellent.)

I appreciate your confidence!

 

[AJB Temple]

Great. Nice thread this.

 

[Mike G]

Fantastic, Nick. Aren't mock-ups useful!

You know how cabriole legs are made, by cutting wood off one side of a leg and planting it on the other.........well, how about doing the same thing in principle with the back legs of the chair, so that although the back tapers out as it goes up, the legs don't follow the same line, but curve gently outwards as you go down?

 

[NickM]

Fantastic, Nick. Are mock-ups useful!

You know how cabriole legs are made, by cutting wood off one side of a leg and planting it on the other.........well, how about doing the same thing in principle with the back legs of the chair, so that although the back tapers out as it goes up, the legs don't follow the same line, but curve gently outwards as you go down?

Thanks Mike.

Yes, I'm very glad I made the mock-up. The other thing that has been useful is that it has forced me to start thinking about how I'd make the real thing - understanding the angles and that sort of thing. The real thing will have very different joinery (proper M&Ts rather than dominos), but it has got me thinking about the construction which must be helpful. It will also be useful for thinking about how much wood I'll need to buy.

That's an interesting idea which I'll think about. My concern would be the join being visible. It would be easier in a darker wood, but these will be oak (with sycamore back bars so it all matches up with the oak/sycamore table). It could be more or less invisible but there would be some luck in getting that result.

If I start with thicker timber than I'm perhaps anticipating buying (I'm envisaging c.50mm), then I could shape a curve in two dimensions. That could be another option which I'll consider. I'll probably get the wood from English Woodland Timber so I'll give them a call at some point to see what dimensions they've got available.

 

[Cabinetman]

Wonderful stuff Nick. Do hope Mrs Nick is being consulted! I think the Oak with Sycamore back bars will look stunning.

 

[NickM]

Wonderful stuff Nick. Do hope Mrs Nick is being consulted! I think the Oak with Sycamore back bars will look stunning.

She certainly is! We're taking it in turns to use the mock-up at meal times.

 

[AJB Temple]

Having dealt with more than my fair share (as a DIYer not pro) of antique chairs, I would avoid making curved back legs in two pieces at all costs. When people tip chairs back, and someone will, the leg joints are so vulnerable. It might cost a bit more, but if you can nest them when cutting the curved back legs then that must be better as long as the curve itself is not dramatic enough to compromise strength down the vertical grain.

I've always thought that that old Hanoverian (originally I think?) method of having all four legs with a slight shoulder under the seat rails both ways, usually with a curve or taper into the rail, is both inherently stronger and potentially more elegant. But it does waste a bit more material so is inevitably premium.

 

[Mike G]

She certainly is! We're taking it in turns to use the mock-up at meal times.

I think my mock up is about 3 years old now, and on at least it's 3rd lot of stapled-on covering material. I did all the joints properly on mine, mainly to work out how best to do them, so this chair is going to be a bit of a wrench to chop up for re-recycling.

 

[NickM]

Having dealt with more than my fair share (as a DIYer not pro) of antique chairs, I would avoid making curved back legs in two pieces at all costs. When people tip chairs back, and someone will, the leg joints are so vulnerable. It might cost a bit more, but if you can nest them when cutting the curved back legs then that must be better as long as the curve itself is not dramatic enough to compromise strength down the vertical grain.

I think Mike's idea was to cut a piece off the inside edge of the leg and glue it onto the outside edge. I don't think strength would be an issue.

I've always thought that that old Hanoverian (originally I think?) method of having all four legs with a slight shoulder under the seat rails both ways, usually with a curve or taper into the rail, is both inherently stronger and potentially more elegant. But it does waste a bit more material so is inevitably premium.

I'm contemplating doing something like that on the front rail/leg joint. Not sure yet though.

 

[NickM]

I think my mock up is about 3 years old now, and on at least it's 3rd lot of stapled-on covering material. I did all the joints properly on mine, mainly to work out how best to do them, so this chair is going to be a bit of a wrench to chop up for re-recycling.

A lot of work would have gone into that!