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Finger Pull Bit

meccarroll

Nordic Pine
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Hi all I am gearing myself up getting ready to make a handeless kitchen (one with intergrated handles). My initial thought was to make the doors out of 18mm MR MDF and use a router cutter for the handle profile so I ordered a 12mm by 35mm router bit and made a test cut in a piece of 18mm MDF. The resulting cut is excellent but after cutting there is not a lot of MDF left on the back edge so I was wondering if anyone here has used a cutter for the same purpose and if so what size was it please?

PICT3389.JPGPICT3388.JPGPICT3386.JPG
 
You could use thicker MDF. I've done them with a spark fin pull with a matching backer let into the front of the gables as an alternative
 
You could use thicker MDF. I've done them with a spark fin pull with a matching backer let into the front of the gables as an alternative
Yes I have thought about 22mm MDF but also thought about making a cutter for the spindle moulder which I am going to try. I don't know what a Spark Fin Pull is?
 
You no doubt have a sharpening co that you use, it would be easy enough for them to alter the cutter that you have, I think that back edge of mdf only needs to be a couple of mm thicker?
Ian
 
It's basically an angled profile that runs the length of the drawer top.
 
What about using a bit that will cut a radius at the bottom and say a 45 degree towards the back side? This may not be a good approach , never tied it , just a thought. Probably would result in too shallow of a pull.
 
You no doubt have a sharpening co that you use, it would be easy enough for them to alter the cutter that you have, I think that back edge of mdf only needs to be a couple of mm thicker?
Ian
I profile the cutters myself from HSS and use the old type cutter blocks. And yes the back edge only needs to be slightly thicker but I will admit I did it using a fence on a router and might obtain better results using my router table. It's an initial investigation as I have never done an intergrated handle on a cabintet before.
 
What about using a bit that will cut a radius at the bottom and say a 45 degree towards the back side? This may not be a good approach , never tied it , just a thought. Probably would result in too shallow of a pull.

I have thought about maybe using a similar approach but my previous history of trying out such things tells me it may end up taking an awful long time and as I will have about 20-30 doors/draw fronts to do I would be better using just one profile. Good idea though and still not out!
 
CMT make a smaller cutter.

Or use 22mm MR MDF
Yes you are right with both the CMT cutters and MDF sugestion but both would add extra cost to a very tight budget. But of course if cost saving was not necessary then either or both would be the most simple and easyest way to go. I'll figure out wich might be the best way to go from the suggestions once I have all the costings put together. Many thank's for your input. Mark
 
I'd be concerned about longevity/ease of damage for a cut edge profile and also it would be difficult to get a good paint finish even with MRMDF
I'd go for plastic or anodised ali extrusions to give the handleless look with strength.

Bob
 
One word of caution. You do need to be very careful on doors that require a lot of 'pull' eg fridge doors. Otherwise this can happen :( and neither of us has excessively long fingernails.

20240517_164903.jpg

Needless to say we are now both very careful but the damage has been done.
 
I'd be concerned about longevity/ease of damage for a cut edge profile and also it would be difficult to get a good paint finish even with MRMDF
I'd go for plastic or anodised ali extrusions to give the handleless look with strength.

Bob
Yes Bob I think I agree apart from finish with MR MDF, I have checked a little and there does seem to be different densities of MR MDF and some do suggest that a higher density MR MDF will machine quite nicly for paint while others can be more troublesome for a paint finish if machined too much. With the advce that I am receiving on here I may just see/ask if a compromise with some of your sugestions might just work better. Thank you for your sugestions Bob.
 
One word of caution. You do need to be very careful on doors that require a lot of 'pull' eg fridge doors. Otherwise this can happen :( and neither of us has excessively long fingernails.

View attachment 26691

Needless to say we are now both very careful but the damage has been done.
I do appreciate your advice but can I ask are your door profiles the same as the ones I posted as I can't quite see from the photo but I do agree it does look concerning to me. To be honest I would like to put handles on the doors and draws but you have to do what people want and in the end it's their desicion. Absolutly appreciate the advice regarding fridge doors seems very good advice.
 
This is one of the designs Siematic use, they do insert an aluminium ware guard which you could forget to bring budget down
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I do appreciate your advice but can I ask are your door profiles the same as the ones I posted as I can't quite see from the photo but I do agree it does look concerning to me. To be honest I would like to put handles on the doors and draws but you have to do what people want and in the end it's their desicion. Absolutly appreciate the advice regarding fridge doors seems very good advice.
I'll take a cross-section photo tomorrow. But I don't think that the profile matters TBH. Regardless of profile, you are still using the tips on your fingers to open the door.
 
Could you get over this by lipping that edge in solid timber, slightly thicker than the mdf and "hanging" over the door face?
Could be left as clear coated timber for added detail.
Cheers Andy
 
Have you or the customer considered the Blum push to open and soft close mechanism. Works extremely well, but not cheap. Very clean look readily achievable.

Push the drawer anywhere and it will open. On wide drawers it uses a connector rod to synchronise the mechanism. It's an add on to the premium soft close system and clips into place. Does not solve the problem with fridges or dishwasher drop down doors though but they are better with handles really.
 
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Just to add to this and my recommendation of the Blum system: I was going to do something similar to what your customer wants, for my own kitchen. I was put off the finger pulls by a chef friend as he said that in a busy kitchen (mine is) they are a dirt trap * and always break. In my case I have a lot of low level drawers that are very wide (42") and deep, and when full of stacks of plates, or cast iron casseroles, they are very heavy. Puts a lot of strain on finger pulls. Probably not normal though.

* Pro chefs (at least good ones) are obsessed with kitchen hygiene. So am I as I have lifelong stomach issues (inherited and congenital) so I took on board the dirt trap point. I've seen the pro kitchen educational vids that show how easily bacteria from eg raw chicken, a lot of which has salmonella, campo or E.Coli present, is spread invisibly onto kitchen surfaces, cupboard handles, fridge doors and prep knife handles. Stuff looks clean - and isn't.
 
Just to add to this and my recommendation of the Blum system: I was going to do something similar to what your customer wants, for my own kitchen. I was put off the finger pulls by a chef friend as he said that in a busy kitchen (mine is) they are a dirt trap * and always break. In my case I have a lot of low level drawers that are very wide (42") and deep, and when full of stacks of plates, or cast iron casseroles, they are very heavy. Puts a lot of strain on finger pulls. Probably not normal though.

* Pro chefs (at least good ones) are obsessed with kitchen hygiene. So am I as I have lifelong stomach issues (inherited and congenital) so I took on board the dirt trap point. I've seen the pro kitchen educational vids that show how easily bacteria from eg raw chicken, a lot of which has salmonella, campo or E.Coli present, is spread invisibly onto kitchen surfaces, cupboard handles, fridge doors and prep knife handles. Stuff looks clean - and isn't.
I have looked at the Hafele push to open with soft close and so far the price is coming in at around £1200 for the kitchen in question, I'll next take a look at Blum to see if the budget will streatch so the doors/draws don't have to rely on the fingure pull alone. Again your input is very valued thank you. Mark
 
Remember it's not the whole price that affects the budget - only the increment over what you would spend anyway for quality soft close drawer systems. In the UK Blum is generally a bit more expensive than Hafele I think. I use Blum because I invested in their template system which makes all the fitting foolproof. On wide drawers with a bottom mount system. I found I had to use a laser level to get the opposite horizontals spot on as faultless function depends on accuracy. The Blum system has a lot of adjustment built in, in pretty much all directions.
 
I take it that the person who has specified that type of handle isn't the person who is going to have to clean them...
If you are hell-bent, use 22mm MRMDF.
S
 
I take it that the person who has specified that type of handle isn't the person who is going to have to clean them...
If you are hell-bent, use 22mm MRMDF.
S
The person has said they prefer not to have handles that are not planted on. I personally think finger pulls still shows a handle just one that is incoperated in the fabric of the doors and draws rather than planted on the face and as people have noted there are associated problems with intergrated pull handles.

Most of the kitchen doors I have seen with the intergrated pull handle are from 18mm MDF so I think it is just a case of finding the right profile to use with 18mm MDF.

The router bit I purchased produces a front cut that is parallel with the face of the door (ok for 22mm but may machine too much away for 18mm MDF) but some of the better lacquered kitchen doors seem to have the front of the finger pull sloped toward the front of the door meaning less material is machined away and so 18mm is permissable.

I have some other jobs to do before the kitchen so there is still time to discuss all that has been said above before going into production.
 
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Way back in the1970s my parents had a new "smart" kitchen from UBM (remember them?).

The under-drawer pulls and those for the wall-hung upper cupboards were OK-ish, but the over-cupboard-door ones definitely not - mum (and everyone else) often breaking nails in an off-target reach. And yes, the protruding edge of the extrusion was hard to clean, the cupboard ones were a dust-and-goo trap, and they didn't do the hinges any favours either (as you usually ended-up pushing down on the door extremity).

The laminated chipboard faces (MDF not being a thing at the time) were slotted centrally along the relevant edge to take the extrusion, which I assume was either pressed or hammered on in the factory. That didn't cause problems. At a guess the face chipboard was either 5/8" or 3/4".

Scarily, I actually found the exact units (below), even down to the colour. I think our tiles were plain white though, and the worktops were rolled-edge Melamine (still ubiquitous today), and i think there might even have been masons' mitres at the corners:

iStock-1223961998.jpg


Obviously I can't do a Valentine Dyall impression in a text message, but basically, "DON'T GO THERE!!!"

E.
PS: The base unit cupboard on the left of the picture shows exactly what the doors did (early Euro hinges, too). Mum's were all like that after a couple of years. The hard and shiny edge of the extrusion really shows it up, as there's nowhere else for the brain to focus on (normally we notice the handles more than the rest of the door).

PPS: A bit more searching suggests the "design" was by W.H.Paul Ltd., Breaston, Derbyshire, in association with the Design Council. WHP were bought out by Glynwed Holdings in 1972 (who seem to have been largely unsuccessful asset-strippers, and dumped most of their "metal-bashing" acquisitions in the early 1980s). WHP were never heard of again, and Glynwed finally expired in the early 2000s (having cut destructive swathes through a sizeable chunk of smaller British manufacturing).
 
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Way back in the1970s my parents had a new "smart" kitchen from UBM (remember them?).

The under-drawer pulls and those for the wall-hung upper cupboards were OK-ish, but the over-cupboard-door ones definitely not - mum (and everyone else) often breaking nails in an off-target reach. And yes, the protruding edge of the extrusion was hard to clean, the cupboard ones were a dust-and-goo trap, and they didn't do the hinges any favours either (as you usually ended-up pushing down on the door extremity).

The laminated chipboard faces (MDF not being a thing at the time) were slotted centrally along the relevant edge to take the extrusion, which I assume was either pressed or hammered on in the factory. That didn't cause problems. At a guess the face chipboard was either 5/8" or 3/4".

Scarily, I actually found the exact units (below), even down to the colour. I think our tiles were plain white though, and the worktops were rolled-edge Melamine (still ubiquitous today), and i think there might even have been masons' mitres at the corners:

iStock-1223961998.jpg


Obviously I can't do a Valentine Dyall impression in a text message, but basically, "DON'T GO THERE!!!"

E.
PS: The base unit cupboard on the left of the picture shows exactly what the doors did (early Euro hinges, too). Mum's were all like that after a couple of years. The hard and shiny edge of the extrusion really shows it up, as there's nowhere else for the brain to focus on (normally we notice the handles more than the rest of the door).

PPS: A bit more searching suggests the "design" was by W.H.Paul Ltd., Breaston, Derbyshire, in association with the Design Council. WHP were bought out by Glynwed Holdings in 1972 (who seem to have been largely unsuccessful asset-strippers, and dumped most of their "metal-bashing" acquisitions in the early 1980s). WHP were never heard of again, and Glynwed finally expired in the early 2000s (having cut destructive swathes through a sizeable chunk of smaller British manufacturing).
Now that's an interesting read! I do remember seeing a lot of kitchens similar to the above when I was younger.
 
Reminds me of a Hygena kitchen I "inherited" in our first house in mid 70's. I think it had plastic moulded full width drawer/door pulls.
I had a Hygena in the 70s with aluminium pulls like that.
 
Had a chat yesterday regarding finger pulls and what people have said about them and looks like we could now use handles!

The doors are going to be plain MDF with just a slight pencil round on the edges. She wants clean lines and a modern look so I was thinking something on the lines of the below but suggestions are welcome. Mark


Kitchen Handle.jpg
 
Had a chat yesterday regarding finger pulls and what people have said about them and looks like we could now use handles!

The doors are going to be plain MDF with just a slight pencil round on the edges. She wants clean lines and a modern look so I was thinking something on the lines of the below but suggestions are welcome. Mark


View attachment 26827
Is that a protective tube around the handle? I think it would look very smart without it.
 
Is that a protective tube around the handle? I think it would look very smart without it.
I'm not sure really I just mentioned everthing what people on here had said and the result was ok but they still want soft close. I thought it was going to be a lot harder to change their minds. It's just a case of finding some nice handles now.
 
I'm not sure really I just mentioned everthing what people on here had said and the result was ok but they still want soft close. I thought it was going to be a lot harder to change their minds. It's just a case of finding some nice handles now.
Good luck when it comes to cabinet handles I let the clients choose them as the cost can go through the roof. And if they don't like the look after install it's on them.
 
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