Blackswanwood
Old Oak
I read ‘“None of that can be billed to anyone” literally. Apologies if I misinterpreted your post Steve.
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How much to make these ?
- Thread starter RogerS
- Start date
Woodbloke
Sequoia
It's been said many times before, but IMO the 'Ikea factor' has to take a fair degree flack in that many folk may well expect that a bespoke, custom piece of whatever (furniture, suit, shoes etc) can be ordered and made for a ludicrously measly amount of wonga. When confronted with the actual reality the reply may often go along the lines of ...'hmph, I can get pretty much the same thing at Ikea for £xyz, why should I pay your over inflated price?' - Rob
Are Ikea responsible for creating a demand or satisfying a demand?
AJB Temple
Sequoia
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I am in two minds about this. For our little restaurant, we suddenly found we needed a glass fronted cabinet with glass shelves to hold about 300 stemware glasses. We got a flat pack from Ikea for under £200. It's black (which is fine). I could have made a cabinet - but it would have taken me 2 weeks and I doubt I could even have bought the glass for the doors and shelves for that, let alone the wood, fittings, security hook etc.
OK, it is not going to last forever, and will not be an heirloom. But it looks great and was a total bargain. Not all of their stuff is amazing, but some of it is exceptionally good for the money. Some of their kitchen pans, stainless steel shelves, and some utensils are great.
Someone in the custom market (Linley et al) may will be in a different bracket know that there is a cost of being unique.
Woodbloke
Sequoia
I think you're in a slightly different position though as you didn't actually approach someone to make it for you and as you've made stuff in the past (and still do) you know fairly accurately what the actual costs really are. I was referring to someone who doesn't know or appreciate what the costs are for an individual, bespoke item and then gets a bit huffy when told the unpalatable truth
- Rob
Lons
Old Oak
Maybe he just didn't fancy the job and priced himself out of it Roger.
That isn't something I approve of so if I didn't like the job or the potential customer asking I just said, "sorry I can't do it". In the early days I did say I was booked solid for 8 months (true) but they decided to wait and I ended up doing it in the end when I should have said no.
But surely if that was the case then why offer to do it for a significantly lower price second time round ? !!Maybe he just didn't fancy the job and priced himself out of it Roger.
That isn't something I approve of so if I didn't like the job or the potential customer asking I just said, "sorry I can't do it". In the early days I did say I was booked solid for 8 months (true) but they decided to wait and I ended up doing it in the end when I should have said no.
A regular experienced in the none commercial world of a hobby turner, very few have any concept of the source cost of the wood let alone associated used materials such as adhesives, finishes etc. in the creation.
Mention that the particular item/s they want made requires a trip to somerset to select the wood they require and that it could possibly run to nearer three figures than two for starters brings them rapidly down to earth.
Just occasionally I have had a request for bespoke pieces from a source that was reasonably aware and prepared for the costs involved.
I guess it's self inflicted by most hobbyists, as the very action of giving so much of the shed output away as gifts leads to others perceptions that you must be able to afford the hobby, your time is free and have no concept of logistics and costs of getting source material to the shed.
Because there are less savvy people out there who would have accepted his first price.
Lons
Old Oak
Very good point Roger, I forgot you said that. Had to be trying it on. Maybe he thought you were just a doddery old bloke.
Should have set your good lady on him, she would have sorted him out PDQ.
Lons
Old Oak
Not just the hobby world Chas.
I had a neighbour / customer who called me out at 4am because the WC cistern in his en-suite had cracked and he had water leaking through the ceiling.
He was well educated, a business owner with a number of shops and P.O. wealthy and of course didn't possess the commonsense to turn off the iso valve. I isolated the cistern and emptied it and went back to bed, didn't charge him and spent a couple of hours sourcing a replacement which as it was a discontinued colour wasn't easy. Eventually found a bespoke maker in Durham but production was a month however they needed the cistern lid to colour match and so I told him he'd have to take that through to them before we could order.
His reply that I had to do that because it was my job didn't go down well and I can be a little blunt at times but politely said that if he wanted me to do that I'd have to charge him half a day labour plus fuel cost for the 80 mile round trip and he just lost it. It ended up with me telling him to go away and find some other mug and to never darken my door again then put a bill through his door for the call out which of course he never paid.
He came back a few years later asking me to do some work which I turned down though we were on speaking terms by that time.
I had a neighbour / customer who called me out at 4am because the WC cistern in his en-suite had cracked and he had water leaking through the ceiling.
He was well educated, a business owner with a number of shops and P.O. wealthy and of course didn't possess the commonsense to turn off the iso valve.
I isolated the cistern and emptied it and went back to bed, didn't charge him and spent a couple of hours sourcing a replacement which as it was a discontinued colour wasn't easy. Eventually found a bespoke maker in Durham but production was a month however they needed the cistern lid to colour match and so I told him he'd have to take that through to them before we could order.His reply that I had to do that because it was my job didn't go down well and I can be a little blunt at times but politely said that if he wanted me to do that I'd have to charge him half a day labour plus fuel cost for the 80 mile round trip and he just lost it. It ended up with me telling him to go away and find some other mug and to never darken my door again then put a bill through his door for the call out which of course he never paid.
He came back a few years later asking me to do some work which I turned down though we were on speaking terms by that time.
So long as it's only the literal lights that go out Steve, and not the metaphorical ones then we're all good!
I too have a pricing system which I used to give to my BA (Hons) students when I taught Furniture Making and Design. It was also picked up and published by an American magazine a number of years back. The magazine version is more compact than my original and largely restricts itself to imperial measure; even now Americans aren't very fond of using metric, ha, ha.
I found my estimating method, as outlined in the attachment pretty accurate for the work I did, but as I'm now semi-retired I don't have much call to price work chasing customers and their money, although I do still take on jobs from time to time and if the money's okay and I feel like it.
Like you, my method of estimating probably won't suit everyone, but it's always surprising how many people contact me, even now, and ask for a copy of it. Anyway, here is Estimating for Furniture Makers: Is the Price Right? Slainte.
That's an excellent paper, Richard. Would you have any objections if we posted it under Resources ? Attributed to you, obviously.
Woodbloke
Sequoia
Agreed, that's a very comprehensive article - Rob
Blackswanwood
Old Oak
Slightly different as it's a hobby for me but on the same theme ...Not just the hobby world Chas.
I had a neighbour / customer who called me out at 4am because the WC cistern in his en-suite had cracked and he had water leaking through the ceiling.
He was well educated, a business owner with a number of shops and P.O. wealthy and of course didn't possess the commonsense to turn off the iso valve.
His reply that I had to do that because it was my job didn't go down well and I can be a little blunt at times but politely said that if he wanted me to do that I'd have to charge him half a day labour plus fuel cost for the 80 mile round trip and he just lost it. It ended up with me telling him to go away and find some other mug and to never darken my door again then put a bill through his door for the call out which of course he never paid.
He came back a few years later asking me to do some work which I turned down though we were on speaking terms by that time.
I reluctantly agreed to make a jewellery box for a "friend" of a friend and let him jump the queue as apparently it was needed urgently for a gift. For people I like I just look for reimbursement of the cost of materials and ask they make a donation to a charity of their choice as they see fit. The bulk of the cost is in the hardware and he was unfazed by the price when we went through what he wanted (which was a long and painful procedure). He also confirmed verbally and by email to go ahead.
Once the box was ready (he chased twice for it) I dropped him an email advising he could pick it up and giving him bank details to pay. He replied saying on reflection it was a bit pricey and perhaps I could give him "mates rates". (He knew he was only being charged for materials). I don't think the moderators will let me publish my actual response but the polite version was "whatever you want to offer me I'm not selling it to you". It's making me quite cross just thinking about it
There are some very strange people around!
AJB Temple
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I agree - it's an excellent paper Richard, even if it is nearly 20 years old, and illustrates why bespoke woodwork is not a route to riches unless you do a Linley and sub-contract almost all skilled work to people who are willing to work for quite low wages.
Much as I love woodwork, and cheffing for that matter, it is not a way to make money these days sadly. If it ever was in modern times.
Much as I love woodwork, and cheffing for that matter, it is not a way to make money these days sadly. If it ever was in modern times.
AJB Temple
Sequoia
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"I don't think the moderators will let me publish my actual response but the polite version was "whatever you want to offer me I'm not selling it to you". It's making me quite cross just thinking about it"
Good for you. I had a similar experience once. Never again.
"Good for you. I had a similar experience once. Never again.
Woodbloke
Sequoia
Regardless of who it is, I would alway, but always take a 50% deposit before even thinking about planing a bit of wood. If the 'client' does then get cold feet when the final bill is required, at least you've got half of it and will have probably covered your costs - RobSlightly different as it's a hobby for me but on the same theme ...
I reluctantly agreed to make a jewellery box for a "friend" of a friend and let him jump the queue as apparently it was needed urgently for a gift. For people I like I just look for reimbursement of the cost of materials and ask they make a donation to a charity of their choice as they see fit. The bulk of the cost is in the hardware and he was unfazed by the price when we went through what he wanted (which was a long and painful procedure). He also confirmed verbally and by email to go ahead.
Once the box was ready (he chased twice for it) I dropped him an email advising he could pick it up and giving him bank details to pay. He replied saying on reflection it was a bit pricey and perhaps I could give him "mates rates". (He knew he was only being charged for materials). I don't think the moderators will let me publish my actual response but the polite version was "whatever you want to offer me I'm not selling it to you". It's making me quite cross just thinking about it
There are some very strange people around!
AJB Temple
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Great advice Rob. We do exactly the same in the restaurant except the deposit is more than 50%. It stops the people who do multiple bookings and last minute cancellation, no shows, time wasters etc.
Windows
Old Oak
Just reading this has raised my blood pressure.
Slightly different as it's a hobby for me but on the same theme ...
I reluctantly agreed to make a jewellery box for a "friend" of a friend and let him jump the queue as apparently it was needed urgently for a gift. For people I like I just look for reimbursement of the cost of materials and ask they make a donation to a charity of their choice as they see fit. The bulk of the cost is in the hardware and he was unfazed by the price when we went through what he wanted (which was a long and painful procedure). He also confirmed verbally and by email to go ahead.
Once the box was ready (he chased twice for it) I dropped him an email advising he could pick it up and giving him bank details to pay. He replied saying on reflection it was a bit pricey and perhaps I could give him "mates rates". (He knew he was only being charged for materials). I don't think the moderators will let me publish my actual response but the polite version was "whatever you want to offer me I'm not selling it to you". It's making me quite cross just thinking about it
There are some very strange people around!
Lons
Old Oak
I had a mate who was a tiler and opened a tile shop in the local town where I always sent customers to choose and then I'd order from him. He was a great bloke, genuine but a bit naive and he took on a large bathroom renovation persuaded by a prominent Indian heart consultant. Price was duly agreed and it was a lot of money.
He persuaded a couple of his mates, plumber and plasterer to help him for fair reward and duly got the job completed and the customer was pleased however said consultant then said "let's discuss the price". It ended up with my mate losing £8k or he would have been forced to take the pratt to court. I'm sure it was a coincidence but he had a stroke just a couple of weeks later and his wife blamed it on stress.
I'd have gone in and ripped it all back out.
The only issues I ever had chasing payment was with a finance director (I got his wife to sort him out), A senior specialist GP earning x5 times my salary and an independant financial adviser. The last two being Scottish, not that I'm suggesting anything BTW.
The people who didn't have much usually tried to pay in advance or at worst immediately on completion.
He persuaded a couple of his mates, plumber and plasterer to help him for fair reward and duly got the job completed and the customer was pleased however said consultant then said "let's discuss the price". It ended up with my mate losing £8k or he would have been forced to take the pratt to court. I'm sure it was a coincidence but he had a stroke just a couple of weeks later and his wife blamed it on stress.
I'd have gone in and ripped it all back out.
The only issues I ever had chasing payment was with a finance director (I got his wife to sort him out), A senior specialist GP earning x5 times my salary and an independant financial adviser. The last two being Scottish, not that I'm suggesting anything BTW.
The people who didn't have much usually tried to pay in advance or at worst immediately on completion.
I’ve never sold anything I’ve made and reading those stories reinforces the reasons why.
AJB Temple
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Hmm. We are presently having an issue with a contractor who following a survey gave a fixed price quotation (not an estimate) to cut about 50 metres of quite tall (8m approx) leylandii hedge. He got half way through the length, with no face cuts, and has tried to double the price. Holding us to ransom in effect with two months of random delays and wanting to switch to a day rate. My wife is beyond p\d off. He will either give in or it will end up in court (fine by me).
He seems a nice guy, but this is shyster territory really but we have half the hedge cut and have paid nothing so far as the written deal was pay on completion.
Integrity does not exist these days it seems.
He seems a nice guy, but this is shyster territory really but we have half the hedge cut and have paid nothing so far as the written deal was pay on completion.
Integrity does not exist these days it seems.
Doug
Old Oak
Hope this link works, it’s one of the craziest customer complaints I’ve heard
Lons
Old Oak
On both sides of the fence which is why I always refused to quote for anythin g that came from an unknown source and wasn't word of mouth. One of the reasons I only ever had 3 payment issues.
I wouldn't object. I do however have the original, also in PDF format, which uses both imperial and metric units, but one possible drawback, I suppose, is that it runs to 35 A4 pages. That's mainly because the images are larger as is the text which is 1-1/2 line spaced, also large before and after paragraph spacing. I could email that version to you if you want to use that instead. Let me know. Slainte.
Trevanion
Old Oak
I know people earning more than £60k per year just doing basic carpentry work, self-employed working for a single builder, so very little paperwork and overheads, you have to work hard for it though.
The trouble with "how much will this cost..." as others have pointed out is that there is a colossal range of factors that go into everyone's pricing and everyone's will be different. The guy who's renting a 2000sq/ft industrial unit for £1500 a month plus £750 a month rates, with utilities on top is going to have to charge significantly more than the guy who happened to inherit a 4000sq/ft cow shed, who isn't paying any rent or rates and is only paying domestic rate on utilities.
I'm not going to give a price on how much it would cost if I did it, because it would be unfair on the guy quoting for the work, and this trade is difficult enough without people beating you down constantly.
Lurker
Old Oak
So……… did you arrive at a decision Roger?
Well since I have yet to receive a quote ......
Just taken delivery of British Hardwoods finest. American poplar. Prepped. Enough for all the doors. £750 including carriage. Result. Will start another thread.
Spectric
New Shoots
That Popular is also called Tulip wood and is great for cabinet door frames as it is so stable, well the last lot I used was. It also paints very well .
Steve Maskery
Old Oak
Indeed, but it is rather soft so dings easily.
It's also known as Canary Whitewood.
S
It's also known as Canary Whitewood.
S
Exactly why I chose it
thetyreman
Nordic Pine
I've had problems with friends expecting me to work for no profit, I just won't do it, some people are crazy enough to want you to work for a loss just for them and it doesn't take long to see their true colours and narcissistic behaviour when the mask slips.
Lons
Old Oak
Probably the worst I had was a guy up the road I've known for over 40 years knocked one day and asked if he could borrow my cement mixer for a weekend to build small retaining pillars so he could lift his oil tank, he promised he'd return it on Monday morning so I gave in with dire warnings that he had better clean it properly. I had a small constuction business but had two mixers and wasn't using it at the time.
I had to go and collect it nearly two weeks later after sending him several texts and it was in a hell of a state so I wasn't happy and asked why he hadn't washed it out. "Oh that wasn't me, it was the bloke I paid to build the wall" he said.
My response can't be published and it's the closest I've come to punching someone on the nose.I'd have billed him for hire and cleaning costs but knew the cheapskate wouldn't have paid but it hardened my resolve to lend tools only to people I trust 100%.
Spectric
New Shoots
Perhaps that is why it is refered to as Tulip wood, but I found it might not be the hardest of hardwoods but better than Redwood and less knotty.
Windows
Old Oak
Looks like the American Tulipwood (Yellow Poplar) that Roger got has the same hardness as Redwood (Scots Pine) whereas European Poplar (White Poplar) is quite a bit softer according to the wood database. Hope I’ve successfully identified the species from the common names. Please correct if I’m mistaken.
Looking forward to the new thread, but did the guy come back with a price for the work?
Looking forward to the new thread, but did the guy come back with a price for the work?
No he didn't and I decided not to press him.