Ian’s new workshop. The Wonky Donkey’s Walls, an inspiration.

[duke]

The windows I did as you have done flush with the exterior and the tapered returns were inside due to another plumb wall inside the wonky original exterior wall. I asked them what's with the second wall only being 1 1/2" thick. They were told to do it this way as opposed to properly insulate the exterior wall which had no insulation. Most of the old farm houses were never insulated or had wood chips/shavings and saw dust used as insulation.
And yes we also have cowboy/shady contractors here.

 

[Cabinetman]

Spent a few hours today preparing the end wall for the insulation, true to form the wall is Barrel shaped, reasonably flat at the top and bottom but it bellys out in the centre by 3 inches.
So at the level of the Furring strips each upright has an individual lump of wood added to bring it all level.
A record has been made of the levels and also the horizontal positions of the uprights, this will be needed in the future if I am to have any chance of fastening things to the wall.

 

[duke]

Were you using the blue tie down strap as a straight line?
Is that a propane gas line for your pool heater,Ian?
Definitely a Wonky Donkey's Wall.

 

[Cabinetman]

Haha, yes I couldn't find any twine, but this worked really well, its good to be able to get it really tight, much easier to measure for the block.
Yes you're correct again it's the gas line for the pool heater ( that we don't have) we're waiting to see if we really need one. But of course it's right in the way of the three layers of insulation that's going on these two walls, nothing too straightforward!

 

[duke]

My Son has an in ground pool, fairly large and avoids the pool heater as much as possible due to the cost.
The only time he will fire it up is if he has a party gathering happening. But they will heat their hot tub year round.

 

[Cabinetman]

My Son has an in ground pool, fairly large and avoids the pool heater as much as possible due to the cost.
The only time he will fire it up is if he has a party gathering happening. But they will heat their hot tub year round.

We never used the heater in Pennsylvania, yes, it’s costly and just wait a little longer and the sun will do all the work anyway, but all the way up here we may have to wait till August!

 

[duke]

I have forgotten what you plan to attach over the rigid insulation. Is It plywood or a much cheaper OSB. By the way the shellac based primer I used on the cabin walls will mask the ugly manufactures printing. Just a thought to cut costs.

 

[NickM]

We never used the heater in Pennsylvania, yes, it’s costly and just wait a little longer and the sun will do all the work anyway, but all the way up here we may have to wait till August!

We had a pool at our previous house which had a gas heater. I showed it to a friend once and he said it was like the burner on a hot air balloon! We used it very sparingly!

 

[AJB Temple]

It's this kind of thing that makes outdoor domestic swimming pools a white elephant these days. We have been contemplating a Japanese style log burning hot tub. Maybe next year when the outside terrace at one end is re-done.

 

[Cabinetman]

I have forgotten what you plan to attach over the rigid insulation. Is It plywood or a much cheaper OSB. By the way the shellac based primer I used on the cabin walls will mask the ugly manufactures printing. Just a thought to cut costs.

Fairly sure it’s going to be drywall, now whether I can get away with square edge and a bit of caulk as I have on my other workshops, or if Pam has her way it will be taped and mud then sanded back flush, never done it and it sounds messy!

It's this kind of thing that makes outdoor domestic swimming pools a white elephant these days. We have been contemplating a Japanese style log burning hot tub. Maybe next year when the outside terrace at one end is re-done.

and constantly fishing leaves and everything else out of the thing, along with the constant battle to stop it going green, and all for a short number of hours use each year, tbh I hate the things.

 

[duke]

Around here the only way you can get square edged drywall is via a special order. The usual suppliers only have tapered edges on the side but square on the ends. You may have to pick up a new skill, wear your grubby's as you will end up with mud on your clothes.

 

[Cabinetman]

Around here the only way you can get square edged drywall is via a special order. The usual suppliers only have tapered edges on the side but square on the ends. You may have to pick up a new skill, wear your grubby's as you will end up with mud on your clothes.

I have seen it at Home D, but that's good to know that it may be in short supply, thanks.

 

[Cabinetman]

It’s now time to finish off the last 1/3rd of the floor.
I’ve got the three frames in place and I needed to pack under with firstly a pad of cushion vinyl flooring, I haven’t read of anyone else doing this but to my mind it can’t do any harm, three reasons, it protects the damp proof membrane being abraded over time by the packing, I think it will also stop some of the noise going into the concrete pad. And thirdly maybe just a tad of spongyness underfoot.
Then an assortment of wooden blocks and wedges/shims then all of them are stuck together and to the joists with Not Nails type adhesive.
Next is two layers of insulation between the joists bonded all round with expanding foam. And FINALLY the ply on top and the floor is done!

 

[JamesHow]

It’s now time to finish off the last 1/3rd of the floor.
I’ve got the three frames in place and I needed to pack under with firstly a pad of cushion vinyl flooring, I haven’t read of anyone else doing this but to my mind it can’t do any harm, three reasons, it protects the damp proof membrane being abraded over time by the packing, I think it will also stop some of the noise going into the concrete pad. And thirdly maybe just a tad of spongyness underfoot.
Then an assortment of wooden blocks and wedges/shims then all of them are stuck together and to the joists with Not Nails type adhesive.
Next is two layers of insulation between the joists bonded all round with expanding foam. And FINALLY the ply on top and the floor is done!

View attachment 37003

I did a similar bodge. I had a load of used plasterboard which I laid over hardcore to prevent the dpm being perforated!

 

[Cabinetman]

Interesting, I’ve never thought of using old plasterboard for anything, and it can be difficult to dispose of.

 

[Cabinetman]

So back to the us and back to work, minus 6c but I was well wrapped up, I had realised that the vertical blocks I had added to the end (very wonky) wall would be difficult to hit with the 7” screws through all the insulation so I have had to sacrifice an inch and a half off the workshop length and add horizontal 2x4’s.



Forgot to mention in the what tools I got for Xmas that son Ben bought me a small level, just like a dozen others but with the added bonus of coloured lights to tell you when it’s level. Now I did think that it was just a gimmick but for a job like this it was very handy indeed, not super accurate about 3mm over 6feet, so you wouldn’t want to be doing anything critical but for a job like this it was ideal with a driver in one hand and levelling up the 2x4 and squinting at the bubble or not in this case! Lift the wood till the level turns green and screw it down.



Then it was on with the Kingspan type insulation, you may remember I was finding it difficult to cut? Well out came a very useful tool, long wavy edged cutters that fit onto a multi tool. Noisy yes but so quick and easy, even better than a hot knife through butter!

 

[duke]

A level that lights up, that's a first for me, I can see it being useful.
-6C with no heat, you just have to work harder to keep warm .
Must feel good to be back at the workshop reno.

 

[RogerS]

That level is really good, Ian. Do you have a manufacturer’s name?

 

[Cabinetman]

That level is really good, Ian. Do you have a manufacturer’s name?

This is what I’ve found from over here Roger, Ben bought it in the uk but just where?

12 Inch Light Level - Franklin Sensors

The Franklin Sensors Light Level changes color and turns green when level or plumb. Easy to see from distances and angles, this is the perfect tool for leveling your RV or camper at night or working in dark areas.

franklinsensors.com

A level that lights up, that's a first for me, I can see it being useful.
-6C with no heat, you just have to work harder to keep warm .
Must feel good to be back at the workshop reno.

Too many lights on it really, bit of a disco lol. Cold or not, yes it’s great to be getting on with it,
Making the window reveals next, just need another pair of hands to clear a lot of stuff from the move to get to the last two sheets of ply.

 

[RogerS]

Thanks Ian. Just ordered one from Amazon £24.58

 

[Cabinetman]

Thanks Ian. Just ordered one from Amazon £24.58

Oh wow that was quick, forgot to say it works on vertical- plumb things too.

 

[Lons]

Oh wow that was quick, forgot to say it works on vertical- plumb things too.

How accurate is the level Ian? Over the years I've found that the only ones I really trust are Stabila and even those lose accuracy especially if dropped. I've got half a dozen and only two are 100% accurate now.

 

[Cabinetman]

How accurate is the level Ian? Over the years I've found that the only ones I really trust are Stabila and even those lose accuracy especially if dropped. I've got half a dozen and only two are 100% accurate now.

As I said really, 3-4mm before the green light comes on and goes out again over about a 6 ft distance. It also has the two bubbles, but I haven’t really checked those.
Tbh it’s not for things that need to be spot on, it’s main use is for rough stud work where a visual indication of near enough level will do, without having to stand in front and check the bubble.
For spot on work I use the blue 6’ one seen in the pic, it’s also really flat/straight.

 

[Lons]

Thanks Ian, I missed that bit earlier, must learn to read. The Stablias I have that have lost accuracy aren't as far out as that

 

[RogerS]

As I said really, 3-4mm before the green light comes on and goes out again over about a 6 ft distance. It also has the two bubbles, but I haven’t really checked those.
Tbh it’s not for things that need to be spot on, it’s main use is for rough stud work where a visual indication of near enough level will do, without having to stand in front and check the bubble.
For spot on work I use the blue 6’ one seen in the pic, it’s also really flat/straight.

Many thanks for introducing me to this bit of kit. Ian. I bought one. Brilliant…..makes levels and verticals so so easy

 

[Cabinetman]

Many thanks for introducing me to this bit of kit. Ian. I bought one. Brilliant…..makes levels and verticals so so easy

I’m glad you like it, must admit that I was worried you might think it a bit naff? But it does have its uses.

 

[Cabinetman]

Well, I’ve been a little bit inactive due to travelling and the snow and the cold but as I couldn’t get on with the side door, ( the snow was half way up it!) and it’s insulation and also being inspired by Rogers stud wall I have started on the front wall of the workshop, it’s gone remarkably quickly. I was able to get four hours on it today and the weather was a few degrees above freezing which helped.
It’s a fairly normal 2 x 4 Stud construction it will be lined on the outside with a decorative half inch plywood, lots of insulation and a total thickness of six and three-quarter inches. The insulation was planned to go between the studs as normal and then a continuous layer on top of that then furring strips and finally plasterboard.
It was then I had a little bit of inspiration, as it’s a non-loadbearing wall, why do the central uprights have to be positioned the way they are? So I did a bit of research and whilst this isn’t an original idea, it’s not that common, I have turned the 2x4’s in the middle of the wall flat ways on, this will save me a lot of time Cutting the Kingspan type insulation into strips and then sealing it on all four edges with expanding foam, also it will save the cold or heat bridging through the studs. Perhaps @Mike G could tell us if it’s allowed in the uk please?


The door is an old one which we don’t need from inside the house, it’s a well built six panel door, new hinges and a decent UK five lever mortice lock plus jam bolts for security will be added. Yes the equipment will go through!
The door casing which is the full depth of the wall ( 6 3/4” ) is made from 3/4” ply and suitably strengthened, the bit that really matters is up against the studs and the hinge screws will go through it into the studs.




Not being a Joiner, it’s been a long time since I did this sort of work and I don’t possess a compressor or nail gun so this was all put together with big old-fashioned 3 1/2 inch nails, 16 D nails to be precise, named after old English 16 pennies per pound? of nails. I originally was going to screw the whole thing together but again after a bit of research I realised that nails are used as they are more resilient to being snapped in sheer under stress.
Ian

 

[AndyP]

Interesting point about using nails over screws in that situation. I hate nails, probably due to me not getting it right first time and the problem of removing them to adjust.
I can imagine how sung and cozy that will shop will be. Will it need aircon in the summer though?

 

[Accipiter]

Many, many years ago I was going to screw down some plywood as a floor. I was told "not to be so daft" and nail it. When I asked why I was told that "screws will loosen due to the vibrations due to the amount of footfall" ... I don't know for definite if that is true as I duly nailed the boards down. As timber floor boards are usually nailed I'd guess there's a large amount of truth to it.

 

[duke]

Looking good Ian, what sheer forces are you worried about?
Over here walls are constructed using nails via a nail gun and by hand.
Often I use screws for interior stud work.
Which direction are the ceiling joist going?

 

[Cabinetman]

Interesting point about using nails over screws in that situation. I hate nails, probably due to me not getting it right first time and the problem of removing them to adjust.
I can imagine how sung and cozy that will shop will be. Will it need aircon in the summer though?

Quite possibly will, and if it’s needed I can add a window unit for the summer months.

Many, many years ago I was going to screw down some plywood as a floor. I was told "not to be so daft" and nail it. When I asked why I was told that "screws will loosen due to the vibrations due to the amount of footfall" ... I don't know for definite if that is true as I duly nailed the boards down. As timber floor boards are usually nailed I'd guess there's a large amount of truth to it.

Now that’s strange, as I always thought that’s precisely why screws should be used!

Looking good Ian, what sheer forces are you worried about?
Over here walls are constructed using nails via a nail gun and by hand.
Often I use screws for interior stud work.
Which direction are the ceiling joist going?

Not worried about the sheer forces at all to be honest, but that was the reason given when I looked it up, and I couldn’t find screws being used in the code info anywhere so nails were used.
Good question, the joists are going in the same direction as this wall, in other words they don’t rest on it.
The only weight this was takes is the triangular stud wall faced with matching ply that sits on top of this wall - just cosmetic to fill in the space.
Ian
Would you be allowed to turn the studs sideways Scott?

 

[duke]

Yes and no. Depends on the use for the wall. Load bearing and partition walls no but often chase walls studs can be turned, I have done it often when space is needed.

 

[Cabinetman]

Thanks, good to know.

 

[Jonathan]

Many, many years ago I was going to screw down some plywood as a floor. I was told "not to be so daft" and nail it. When I asked why I was told that "screws will loosen due to the vibrations due to the amount of footfall" ... I don't know for definite if that is true as I duly nailed the boards down. As timber floor boards are usually nailed I'd guess there's a large amount of truth to it.

From my experience the opposite is true, many years ago I was the snagger on a house building site most of the homes completed in the winter had squeaky floors when they dried out, we had to go over the floors and punch the nails in. Ring shank nails would be a ok choice but and difficult to punch below the surface, screws just work.

Not being a Joiner, it’s been a long time since I did this sort of work and I don’t possess a compressor or nail gun so this was all put together with big old-fashioned 3 1/2 inch nails, 16 D nails to be precise, named after old English 16 pennies per pound? of nails. I originally was going to screw the whole thing together but again after a bit of research I realised that nails are used as they are more resilient to being snapped in sheer under stress.
Ian

Ian I’ve always used quality 6x100 screws in timber framing and never had a problem only time I’ve experienced a 6x100 sheer is when screwing into concrete with a big 18v driver

 

[Accipiter]

Only saying what I was told around 58~60 years ago... and advised to use lost head nails. I wasn't working in any new build housing back then. Worked fine for me. I've never found any floorboards fixed down with screws - even when I renovated an old farmhouse on the West Yorkshire moors and had to replace boards there.

 

[Lons]

It was then I had a little bit of inspiration, as it’s a non-loadbearing wall, why do the central uprights have to be positioned the way they are? So I did a bit of research and whilst this isn’t an original idea, it’s not that common, I have turned the 2x4’s in the middle of the wall flat ways on, this will save me a lot of time Cutting the Kingspan type insulation into strips and then sealing it on all four edges with expanding foam, also it will save the cold or heat bridging through the studs. Perhaps @Mike G could tell us if it’s allowed in the uk please?

Mike will have a view on this Ian but mine is that while I'm sure it will be fine the timber is usually more prone to warping along the thinner section which if installed the usual way would be held and restrained by noggins.

As it isn't a habitable room there wouldn't be restrictions in the UK as far as I'm aware.

 

[Lons]

Many, many years ago I was going to screw down some plywood as a floor. I was told "not to be so daft" and nail it. When I asked why I was told that "screws will loosen due to the vibrations due to the amount of footfall" ... I don't know for definite if that is true as I duly nailed the boards down. As timber floor boards are usually nailed I'd guess there's a large amount of truth to it.

That doesn't make sense to me and I'd suspect he didn't know what he was talking about though I could be shot down in flames.

Standard smooth nails can never have the holding power of screws and therefore the opposite is true and it's a common reason for loose and squeaky flooring. Ringshank nails on the other hand have almost the holding power of screws which is why they're recommended for flooring and pallet construction which anyone who's tried will tell you they're a PITA to remove.

 

[Cabinetman]

Mike will have a view on this Ian but mine is that while I'm sure it will be fine the timber is usually more prone to warping along the thinner section which if installed the usual way would be held and restrained by noggins.

As it isn't a habitable room there wouldn't be restrictions in the UK as far as I'm aware.

Yes that’s true about them warping and it’s something I hadn’t considered, there’s a half inch sheet of ply going onto them which won’t stop it, oh well it will just reinforce the wonky donkey name!
Now over here in this Democrat State where rules and regulations abound that isn’t the case, everything has to be to code, technically speaking I can’t put a shelf up without permission. All I can say is Bums to that!

 

[Lons]

I'm sure it will be fine Ian but if it warps it will be in character with the original building.

 

[Jonathan]

Only saying what I was told around 58~60 years ago... and advised to use lost head nails. I wasn't working in any new build housing back then. Worked fine for me. I've never found any floorboards fixed down with screws - even when I renovated an old farmhouse on the West Yorkshire moors and had to replace boards there.

58 60 years ago the screws and methods of putting them in where very different to today.
I don’t want to imagine trying to screw a floor down with slot head screws unless you use a London screwdriver.