If there was one hand tool which you would like to see made again.

[Mike]

I once had the pleasure of using St. David of Charlesworth's Stanley 5.5 jack which was unbelievably good as he'd spent hours and hours to tune it 'just a bit'. Most so called 'tuned' planes of whatever denomination are better than standard and it's worth spending some time on them, but St. Dave's was just about perfect - Rob

I had the same experience with David and his Stanley. After a week of using his plane, I bought my own.

 

[Eric the Viking]

Definitely Abrafile saws. I have a few left, and they're treasured.

 

[Andy Kev.]

With ref to my initial post: I think I’ve managed a good second best in the form of a new old stock Marples drill. The footprint chuck seems to fit it, too!

 

[Inspector]

I wish I had the bucks for a Tucker Vise. It was a pattern makers type vice Lee Valley made a small run of ages ago. The patterns were lost/destroyed and would be too costly to make again so they are for collectors now. Sometimes I think it would be nice if a good company in China would copy it.

Pete

 

[Andy Kev.]

I wish I had the bucks for a Tucker Vise. It was a pattern makers type vice Lee Valley made a small run of ages ago. The patterns were lost/destroyed and would be too costly to make again so they are for collectors now. Sometimes I think it would be nice if a good company in China would copy it.

Pete

I sometimes wonder if a small British company could not be set up to make high quality tools at a fair price. It would have to be a niche enterprise making things like the vice you suggest or decent hand drills. It can be done. There is Clifton making planes and as Andy T pointed out above, there are a number of one man bands. The Americans seem to be rather good at that sort of approach. I wonder why we are less inclined.

 

[AndyT]

With ref to my initial post: I think I’ve managed a good second best in the form of a new old stock Marples drill. The footprint chuck seems to fit it, too!View attachment 54982

I wonder if that's the sort Steve Maskrey was remembering? It looks good.

 

[Woodbloke]

I sometimes wonder if a small British company could not be set up to make high quality tools at a fair price. It would have to be a niche enterprise making things like the vice you suggest or decent hand drills. It can be done. There is Clifton making planes and as Andy T pointed out above, there are a number of one man bands. The Americans seem to be rather good at that sort of approach. I wonder why we are less inclined.

Could be about finding the right niche market, or one that hasn't already been tapped. The 'murricans have a slightly bigger marketplace than the UK which might also be a factor, plus we have Europe a hop across the Channel where no doubt there are plenty of other entrepreneurs with the same sort of idea - Rob

 

[Trevanion]

I sometimes wonder if a small British company could not be set up to make high quality tools at a fair price. It would have to be a niche enterprise making things like the vice you suggest or decent hand drills. It can be done. There is Clifton making planes and as Andy T pointed out above, there are a number of one man bands. The Americans seem to be rather good at that sort of approach. I wonder why we are less inclined.

It just wouldn't make economic sense to start that sort of workshop from scratch today, unfortunately. Companies like Clifton, Flinn Garlick, Ashley Iles, Ernest Wright, etc... only work because they already have the premises, the equipment, and the know-how from a century ago. It would be wonderful to be able to have more British manufacturers, but I imagine that these existing businesses are only just scraping by themselves due to low demand for premium tools. This is clear from how retailers like Axminster are struggling to get by.

Hobbies aren't as popular as they once were, as fewer people have spare time to spend on hobbies due to toxic work cultures in modern workplaces meaning people work much longer hours, and people are working many more years than they would have previously, so there are many fewer retirees than there were twenty years ago. Plus the fact that there are a lot of people who are struggling to make ends meet, so they do not have extra money to spend on luxury items such as tools.

 

[Cabinetman]

It just wouldn't make economic sense to start that sort of workshop from scratch today, unfortunately. Companies like Clifton, Flinn Garlick, Ashley Iles, Ernest Wright, etc... only work because they already have the premises, the equipment, and the know-how from a century ago. It would be wonderful to be able to have more British manufacturers, but I imagine that these existing businesses are only just scraping by themselves due to low demand for premium tools. This is clear from how retailers like Axminster are struggling to get by.

Hobbies aren't as popular as they once were, as fewer people have spare time to spend on hobbies due to toxic work cultures in modern workplaces meaning people work much longer hours, and people are working many more years than they would have previously, so there are many fewer retirees than there were twenty years ago. Plus the fact that there are a lot of people who are struggling to make ends meet, so they do not have extra money to spend on luxury items such as tools.

I hadn’t thought of things in that way, sounds quite grim! And I thought I had a hard enough working life.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I wish I had the bucks for a Tucker Vise. It was a pattern makers type vice Lee Valley made a small run of ages ago. The patterns were lost/destroyed and would be too costly to make again so they are for collectors now. Sometimes I think it would be nice if a good company in China would copy it.

Pete

Have you had a look at the Dieter Schmid website (feinewerkzeuge)? They seem to have a lot of vices. You'd have to look for yourself because I don't feel qualified to comment on them.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I wonder if that's the sort Steve Maskrey was remembering? It looks good.

It is good in the sense that it is well made. Although I've not drilled a hole with it yet, I'm confident that it will work perfectly. It's clear from the picture that the Footprint is just a tad longer. I prefer that as it gives the drill a slightly more slender feel which for me makes it easier to get vertical. That said, I'm really happy with the purchase of the Marples.

 

[Andy Kev.]

It just wouldn't make economic sense to start that sort of workshop from scratch today, unfortunately. Companies like Clifton, Flinn Garlick, Ashley Iles, Ernest Wright, etc... only work because they already have the premises, the equipment, and the know-how from a century ago. It would be wonderful to be able to have more British manufacturers, but I imagine that these existing businesses are only just scraping by themselves due to low demand for premium tools. This is clear from how retailers like Axminster are struggling to get by.

Hobbies aren't as popular as they once were, as fewer people have spare time to spend on hobbies due to toxic work cultures in modern workplaces meaning people work much longer hours, and people are working many more years than they would have previously, so there are many fewer retirees than there were twenty years ago. Plus the fact that there are a lot of people who are struggling to make ends meet, so they do not have extra money to spend on luxury items such as tools.

I've been thinking hard about this. It's obviously more complex than the initial idea and as I have no experience of running a business, I'm open to correction on just about everything. However, here goes:

My first thought was something more along the lines of a one man and his dog set up or perhaps a group of like minded people each taking a different stage of production, initially in a leisurely, free time sort of way. There are of course examples of this e.g. Philly Planes and HNT Gordon in Australia. As far as I can tell, they are serious commercial ventures but are not run on an industrial scale.

The next step up - while retaining quality - are smallish to medium firms like Clifton or Lie-Neilson where quality is still excellent. I presume that Veritas is a step bigger but quality is still maintained. The key word is quality because it seems to me that as soon as you go mass market, that will suffer or the tools become electric and expensive if you want reliability eg Festool, Mafell.

The other thing is that most toolmaking, unless you're doing wooden planes, is going to be principally a matter of metal work (of which I know nothing other than the odd bit of rust removal and sh***ening). So suppose you wanted to make e.g. a hand drill. There aren't that many components but the gearing and the chuck look a bit fiddly. Must be doable though, because it's been done. If the idea was to start small and the people involved weren't going to live from it e.g. hobbyists/retirees, I wonder if with small production rates of high quality kit, you could start to establish a name and more importantly a demand for the products, thus facilitating the next stage of putting the set up on a more commercial basis. I reckon the key is to win customers who are knowledgeable and don't mind paying for quality.

Finally, I wonder if the Americans are more inclined to take on such projects. Just consider The Lost Art Press. They decided to address the niche market of woodworking and other crafts books. They did, however, insist from the word go that the books would be made to the best old-fashioned standards. Now they regularly reject takeover offers from big publishing houses, the sort of firms which abandoned physical quality in their books years ago, thus creating a gap in the market which LAP plugged and is flourishing as a result. Similarly Stanley abandoned hand tools but now, having noticed the revival in hand tool use amongst hobbyists, they seem to be playing catchup but their products don't seem to be rated as highly as those of their rivals I mentioned above.

 

[Lurker]

I’m surprised that you think that there’s a revival of hand tool usage.
I’m sure I am not alone in mentally noting second hand tool prices and despite an uplift during COVID they are at best stagnant.
I would guess many here are like me and have far more tools than they could ever use.
I have looked at selling my surplus, and donating the money to charity but it’s difficult to find a platform to do it.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I’m surprised that you think that there’s a revival of hand tool usage.
I’m sure I am not alone in mentally noting second hand tool prices and despite an uplift during COVID they are at best stagnant.
I would guess many here are like me and have far more tools than they could ever use.
I have looked at selling my surplus, and donating the money to charity but it’s difficult to find a platform to do it.

Certainly the Americans frequently refer to the hand tool revival. I assume that any such revival is only amongst hobbyists as hand tools are surely not viable for pros. I had gained the impression that hand tool prices generally increase but I have to admit that it's not something I've monitored closely.

 

[Lurker]

Facebook marketplace.
Decent planes are around the £10 mark.
Frequently “box of old tools “ with some decent items for £10.
True you do get the odd “antique wooden plain(sic)” for £50

 

[AJB Temple]

Among my friends, acquaintances and customers, apart from people on here, I don't know anyone who us capable of making anything, let alone maintain and use hand tools competently. Not sure there is a revival. There must be tons in junk shops and eBay.

No one will make anything on a "free time sort of basis" for someone else to make a profit out of. Sales are always demand led unless you are creating a new unicorn. Never go into business without being really clear what your market is.

 

[Trevanion]

Funnily enough, a hand drill is probably one of the most technical hand tools you could have chosen as an example for reproduction.

First you would need to produce patterns for the cast frame and main drive gear, and you would need several patterns to fill a mould box otherwise it would not be economical to cast one pattern at a time. Then once you've had your pieces cast from iron you would need to have them machined which would require specialist fixtures to be made to hold your frame casting to mill flat spots for the gears to run on and drill and thread holes for handles. You would also need to have the gears hobbed, and being bevel gears this will require a fair bit of setup and technical knowledge to get correct. After that you need to have handles turned and fitted for threaded inserts to be able to thread into the frame, and also a chuck to go on the end which would will be more economical to buy from a specialist company like Rohm.

How much would you have to charge for such a tool? I wouldn't imagine you would be making much money out of charging £500 for such a thing. Forgetting the labour element which would be significant, just acquiring the machinery to do these tasks if wished to do it in house to save money over outsourcing it you would be talking thousands of pounds buying secondhand relics, let alone new machinery, it would take a very long time to recuperate the investment.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Funnily enough, a hand drill is probably one of the most technical hand tools you could have chosen as an example for reproduction.

First you would need to produce patterns for the cast frame and main drive gear, and you would need several patterns to fill a mould box otherwise it would not be economical to cast one pattern at a time. Then once you've had your pieces cast from iron you would need to have them machined which would require specialist fixtures to be made to hold your frame casting to mill flat spots for the gears to run on and drill and thread holes for handles. You would also need to have the gears hobbed, and being bevel gears this will require a fair bit of setup and technical knowledge to get correct. After that you need to have handles turned and fitted for threaded inserts to be able to thread into the frame, and also a chuck to go on the end which would will be more economical to buy from a specialist company like Rohm.

How much would you have to charge for such a tool? I wouldn't imagine you would be making much money out of charging £500 for such a thing. Forgetting the labour element which would be significant, just acquiring the machinery to do these tasks if wished to do it in house to save money over outsourcing it you would be talking thousands of pounds buying secondhand relics, let alone new machinery, it would take a very long time to recuperate the investment.

I'm so glad I got in my sentence above about being open to correction and never having run a business!

FWIW I think that my idea would only be feasible for a (very) small group of people who were in no way dependant on such a venture for their livings. I suppose it would essentially be a labour of love on a break even basis. On the other hand, there are people like the bloke who founded Bridge City Toolworks (he's since sold it to a Chinese firm). He was a chap making high quality kit, admittedly with a strong aesthetic quality (which wouldn't be part of my idea), presumably having identified the fact that there is a fair market, at least in the USA, of relatively well-heeled hobbyists. I do covet his hand drill BTW but it seems you can't get one for under $500. There was also that chap in the UK who made the most exquisite hand planes but they never seemed to come in at under a couple of grand. That said, there was also a bloke who lived by Lake Constance (Gerd Fritsche) who made much more affordable planes. As far as I know he worked entirely on his own. There might be a documentary about him on YouTube. I'll see if I can find it.

The thing that intially set off my train of thought a couple of weeks ago was the closure of a local ironmongers. There is one last forlorn object which the new owners want rid of: a rock solid looking, good old-fashioned key cutting machine. It did make me wonder if there are old fashioned machines kicking around on the second hand market. Uneconomical for a normal business but which would probably do the job.

Ah well, never mind. You live and learn. It's just that I sometimes find the quality of mass market stuff to be a bit depressing.

 

[Lurker]

You live and learn. It's just that I sometimes find the quality of mass market stuff to be a bit depressing.

I would certainly agree with that.
I can’t remember the last time I bought a new hand tool, mainly because I enjoy refurbishing old tools.
Equally I can’t remember a hand tool that I have acquired, that is say more than 50 years old, being poor quality.

 

[Woodbloke]

The thing that intially set off my train of thought a couple of weeks ago was the closure of a local ironmongers...

There used to be a couple of decent ironmongery type places in the city, along with the excellent but now long gone Pennyfarthing Tools. Would you adam n'eve it, but we haven't even got a decent main Post Office any more in the city centre. We now have to make do with a small counter at the back of a gift shop near the cathedral. We do though, have plenty of nail bars, vape shops, barbers and charity shops - Rob

 

[Andy Kev.]

There used to be a couple of decent ironmongery type places in the city, along with the excellent but now long gone Pennyfarthing Tools. Would you adam n'eve it, but we haven't even got a decent main Post Office any more in the city centre. We now have to make do with a small counter at the back of a gift shop near the cathedral. We do though, have plenty of nail bars, vape shops, barbers and charity shops - Rob

Sad, isn't it? I think that we are still in the middle of a huge shake up as a result of the development of online shopping. I suspect that in the medium to long term there will be a bit of a revival in the manner that e.g. vinyl MPs have come back a bit. Perhaps people will come to realise what's being lost and the market will respond accordingly. IMO digitalisation has still not found its final, stable place in the scheme of things, although that day will come relatively soon.

As it is, we have people with a memory of the pre-digital world (I first had to use a computer at work in the mid 90s) and I wonder if it is they who will point out better alternatives to so-called digital natives. Here's a very small example and although it is a matter of mechanical vs electric as opposed to vs digital, I believe that the same principle applies. A friend asked me to make some small wall brackets for her. To drill out the holes I used my footprint drill. She was pleasantly surprised at the absence of noise, dust and above all at how quick and unfussy it was. I think that every household probably needs an electric drill (the norm) but they'd also be very well served by having a decent eggbeater as well.

 

[AndyT]

I think that the emerging theme here is that we are passing through a huge change in the way that goods are found out about and bought. We can't stop it but we can try to understand it.

Change on this scale need not be planned by anyone, it happens when a lot of us make similar decisions where we see an opportunity.

Compare a similar change, for our parents and grandparents, as transport switched from horses to internal combustion engined vehicles. Nobody organised a vote on whether to make the change or not. If some people saw the downside (noise, pollution, injuries, reconfiguring large cities, travelling much further to work, CO2 emissions, etc) far more people saw the advantages of getting around quicker with less effort.

In a similar way, we have collectively embraced the ease of finding what we want to buy and having it delivered almost immediately.

By the time we have all realised that we have losses to consider alongside the gains, it will be too late to change back to the old ways again.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

By the time we have all realised that we have losses to consider alongside the gains, it will be too late to change back to the old ways again.

I do think it is important not to forget the downsides of old ways though. When I moved into the town I now live in - 33 years ago now - we had a collection of smaller shops, including a store that fell a little short of a traditional ironmongers, but sold some tools, paint, hardware etc. There were also 2 butchers, a greengrocer, etc etc. As a (then) single person with a job, they could pretty nearly have not existed for the use they were to me. Their working ours were my working hours. That left Saturday - there was no Sunday opening, and a lot closed on Saturday afternoons. That meant they were opening all week for the unemployed, retired, and families with only one income. So mostly not big spenders. Not surprisingly, things had to change.

Even the switch from horses to internal combustion engined vehicles reduced some forms of pollution - growing quantities of effluent but also noise - some streets were streets "paved" with end grain wood blocks to reduce the noise of horse hooves and cart wheels.

Of course, growing up in Sheffield I could go to Ken Hawley's shop

 

[AndyT]

All good points Tony - especially the last one. Do you remember meeting Ken there?

 

[AndyP]

My father could never understand those who look upon steam trains with nostalgia.” They never had to commute to London every day in summer with the carriage windows closed to stop the soot smuts blackening your shirts”

 

[Sheffield Tony]

All good points Tony - especially the last one. Do you remember meeting Ken there?

In truth, my Dad being a steelworker and a hobby woodworker, I grew up surrounded by most of the tools I needed. When I started getting into electronics, I recall going to Hawley's tool shop looking for 0.5 mm drills. Unsurprisingly he had them. I think I still have some somewhere. It was a fab shop we used to peer in the window of ... Dad loved the "We sell nowt but tools" sign on the door.

I've never visited Bristol Designs, but I like to hope it looks a bit like Ken's shop did ?

 

[AndyT]

It's a good shop (of a sort most people don't have within a half hour walk) but I expect Ken's would have been more densely filled!

 

[Andy Kev.]

Here's the documentary about Gerd Fritsche. It's in German but you'll all understand what's going on.

Handwerkskunst: Wie man einen Hobel baut - hier anschauen

Seit vielen Jahren stellt Gerd Fritsche aus Sigmarszell bei Lindau außergewöhnliche Hobel her. Er verwendet er eine Hobelsohle aus Stahl, zwei Seitenteile aus Messing, eine Hobelklappe aus Bronze und für die Griffe wertvolle Hölzer, die ein schönes Wechselspiel mit den Metallen ergeben...

www.ardmediathek.de

 

[Andy Kev.]

Ref the change in shopping habits. As far as I am aware, there are only two shops in Germany which qualify as real tool shops. One is Dictum in Munich and Plattling and the other is Dieter Schmid in Berlin. Unfortunately after Covid, the latter switched to online only, which made sense because they only had a tiny area (probably about 60 sq ft) in which they could display a very small selection of their stock.

Dictum, OTH, has a well stocked shop in Munich and a sort of paradise on earth display in Plattling. I always make a point of going into the Munich shop whenever I find myself in that city and unfortunately never emerge empty-handed. Definitely a good reason to go for a weekend city break.

My guess is that the situation might be a bit better in the UK. Or am I wrong?

The point is, I think, that if you have a specialist real shop in a place with a big catchment area, you might thrive because there is so little competition. Dictum is probably a case of their larger, virtual business helping drive the smaller, real world shops. Incidentally, they also have their course workshops in the same building in Munich, with other courses being held not too far from Plattling, so it all seems to be sort of self-reinforcing. The way ahead?

 

[AndyP]

I’ve yet to find a “real tool shop” here. Prices here from the online suppliers means my frequent visits to the UK mean I can click and collect from friends and family there.
There are even online tool stores that will only supply to trade customers; confirmed with a SIRET number (registered business number).

 

[Mike]

Unfortunately, Dictum filed for insolvency and is looking for investors, despite recent annual revenue of about 30 million Euros.

Traditionsreicher Werkzeughersteller Dictum meldet Insolvenz an (81 Mitarbeiter) | Insolvenzmeldung | Pleiteticker

Der Messer und Werkzeughersteller Dictum aus Plattling im Landkreis Deggendorf hat einen Antrag auf Eigeninsolvenz beim zuständigen Insolvenzgericht gestellt.

pleiteticker.info

Dictum is still open for business and its employees are being paid through June through the insolvency scheme. I never visited either of Dictum's two stores because I bought most of my hand tools from U.S sources before I retired and was interested in power tools that were not available at Dictum.

My favorite power tool shop, Dr. Keller Maschinen GmbH, in Mannheim closed its doors in 2022. This was my SCM, Festool, and Bessey supplier and they rarely had to order what I wanted as it was a well-stocked distributor. I helped the owner's son clear out the shop and warehouse following the liquidation auctions.

Here are Internet photos of the shop a few years before it closed. This is the main sales and display floor and the warehouse was just as large on the other side of the wall with the green banner.





This is how the same areas looked in December 2022 before we removed the dust extraction ducting.

 

[Cabinetman]

Very sad and quite depressing when businesses end.
I suppose it’s a simple case of not enough people like us buying enough new tools and equipment. Can’t see that situation changing anytime soon unfortunately.

 

[Woodbloke]

Very sad and quite depressing when businesses end.
I suppose it’s a simple case of not enough people like us buying enough new tools and equipment. Can’t see that situation changing anytime soon unfortunately.

That is sad news indeed! However, the woodworking tool shop I went to in Tokyo recently is absolutely thriving! The current owner, plus his mum and dad have a tiny shop smaller than a double garage, absolutely rammed to the ceiling with top quality, professional hand tools. I initially went in to try and purchase a Tasai Damascus steel chisel, sold in Europe by Dictum. When I enquired, the owner told me in no uncertain terms that his professional Japanese carpenter customers had tried them on site and advised him that they were 'no good' (his words). They're pretty to look at, but useless for the rigours of site work and as such, he didn't stock them.

He and his dad are also huge fans of Jim Krenov and have well thumbed, autographed copies of all of his books so we had some lengthy conversations!

The shop, when open (he posts on InstaG when it's closed) is full of a constant throughput of European, American, Canadian, Aussies etc etc customers and it'll certainly be one of my 'must visit' shops next time we're in Tokyo - Rob

 

[Andy Kev.]

Unfortunately, Dictum filed for insolvency and is looking for investors, despite recent annual revenue of about 30 million Euros.

Traditionsreicher Werkzeughersteller Dictum meldet Insolvenz an (81 Mitarbeiter) | Insolvenzmeldung | Pleiteticker

Der Messer und Werkzeughersteller Dictum aus Plattling im Landkreis Deggendorf hat einen Antrag auf Eigeninsolvenz beim zuständigen Insolvenzgericht gestellt.

pleiteticker.info

Dictum is still open for business and its employees are being paid through June through the insolvency scheme. I never visited either of Dictum's two stores because I bought most of my hand tools from U.S sources before I retired and was interested in power tools that were not available at Dictum.

My favorite power tool shop, Dr. Keller Maschinen GmbH, in Mannheim closed its doors in 2022. This was my SCM, Festool, and Bessey supplier and they rarely had to order what I wanted as it was a well-stocked distributor. I helped the owner's son clear out the shop and warehouse following the liquidation auctions.

Here are Internet photos of the shop a few years before it closed. This is the main sales and display floor and the warehouse was just as large on the other side of the wall with the green banner.

View attachment 55048

View attachment 55050

This is how the same areas looked in December 2022 before we removed the dust extraction ducting.

View attachment 55049

View attachment 55051

That's shocking news! I wonder if Dictum has over-extended its stock range. It does offer an awful lot of alternatives for any given function e.g. I reckon that the marking and measuring section could be pruned right back.

 

[AndyP]

Mike there is no mention of any problems on their website. I’ve used them in the past a few times. Are they still trading.?