Let Wine Breathe?

[Andy Kev.]

Quite often people will uncork a bottle of wine and then let the bottle stand for an hour or so in order to let it "breathe" i.e. undergo a bit of oxidation or absorb a bit of oxygen, or both in order to improve the flavour.

Anybody who has ever heard of the concept of surface area to volume ratio would probably question this. How can exposing less than a square inch of wine in the neck of a bottle improve the flavour of the entire bottle?

Enter the decanter. The act of pouring the wine into a decanter, a sloshy business which definitely exposes a lot of the wine to air will have an effect and after an hour the wine should be in the desired condition.

However, there are a few variations on this theme. I find that with "big" white wines e.g. Gewurztraminer and Pinot Gris from Alsace that a good effect is achieved if you take half a glass of wine from the bottle on opening it - which is a nice way of getting a preview - put the cork back in and stick it in the fridge for the next day, the development in the flavour is remarkable and the wine becomes gentler on the palate.

With reds the flavour can change dramatically over, say, three days (assuming you have the self discipline not to glug the lot at once), the second day usually being the peak IMO. Really good, very old wines don't seem to survive that though and they really have to be drunk on the evening of opening.

Any thoughts?

 

[AJB Temple]

Yep. Experimented a lot with this as I used to be very keen on wine and bought a lot en primeur.

I think just taking the cork out for a bit is pointless. Decanting improves even young red wines. However, I also think you can over do it so with things like a 10 year old Rioja reserva it can get "heavy" in no time.

I've never really discerned much benefit in decanting whites and so I have never bothered. Partly it is because I am a heathen and like whites to be chilled.

Moved away from my wine obsession about 10-15 years ago, when I sold the house that had a proper cellar, and sold off nearly all my stock as the value grew beyond drinkable levels. Partly this was because I found I was very happy with good quality lightly aged Rioja's and these don't need decanting and are very temperature tolerant and quite cheap. Money no object (not the case these days) and I would be drinking Pauillacs and Margaux by choice though.

These days I hardy drink alcohol. My wife doesn't drink alcohol at all and there is no fun drinking alone.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Adrian,

I agree that wine shared is usually wine better enjoyed. However, a glass as an accompaniment to a good book with a clock ticking in the background is a fine thing.

As it happens I bought a good bottle of Pauillac last Saturday and am looking forward to it. I also got a bottle of posh Burgundy which I'm looking forward to even more.

I know what you mean about ordinary wines though. The local glugging wine around here is called Trollinger and I think it's absolutely delicious, especially with gyros and chips. I suspect that no Trollinger has ever even heard of a decanter.

 

[Tiresias]

The act of pouring the wine into a decanter, a sloshy business

No necessarily. I have some of these - looks a bit medical, but gets the air in. And a decanter looks nicer on the table. To my mind any way.



To be absolutely honest I've not really noticed all that much difference. Certainly not for the whites I generally drink.

For red, mmm, yes, but I'm not pompous enought to imagine my palate is that good.

At a dinner once I had a 60's Lafite. I'd have to check the menu card to be sure, but maybe '67. Nothing special. And I have a gift from a neighbour of a bottle of claret, which when I looked it up it is worth over £700. Now when on earth am I going to drink that? Might use it for cooking some day.

Not really.

 

[novocaine]

I buy a wine that I like and I drink it, if I have to alter the flavour to suit me, then it isn't a wine I like.

the pretentitious air surrounding wine is quiet absurd in this day and age, when all but the most local of wines is heavily produced and blended to give a consistant profile across a batch and from year to year, even your crazy priced stuff has been adjusted to suit.

Same applies to coffee although you do have some control as you do the final process of production yourself (grind and turn to liquid). If you don't like it, try something else.


bscene-drinkingbuddies:

 

[AJB Temple]

Most things that we eat or drink Dave are "altered". Food is cooked, salads are dressed, cheese is matured, milk is pasteurised, tea and coffee are brewed. So I suggest that allowing wine to oxidise a little to improve it is reasonable and not pretentious at all if that is what the user likes: it is the simplest of processes after all. Why be disparaging and judgemental?

 

[novocaine]

Why be disparaging and judgemental?

there was nothing judgemental about it, nor disparaging, if you feel the need then crack on. I've spent far to long with people who claim to know about wine and far to long hearing how uncooth or bullish I am for not treating it in the same way.

Most things that we eat or drink Dave are "altered". Food is cooked, salads are dressed, cheese is matured, milk is pasteurised, tea and coffee are brewed.

Yes, but is there ever any snootyness associated with it? (ok, maybe cheese). I haven't made myself clear really, perhaps altered isn't the correct word, what I'm trying to say is that a taster has assessed the wine and attempted to adjust it's flavour profile to be both palatable, but also to ensure consistancy, your act of oxidising the wine is......

sod it, I don't care, if someone would like to delete my comments from here that would be great thanks.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

With some trepidation - I have drunk a fair bit of wine, been to evening classes, been on wine tasting visits with a couple of friends to Bordeaux, Northern Rhone, but still wouldn't think myself anywhere near expert ...

I've rarely heard anyone recommending decanting whites, though there is possible scope for benefit if it helps to lose some of the (IMHO, intrusive) excess sulphur dioxide often found.

Is the intention of decanting really to achieve oxidation ? I would not have thought to. Maybe to encourage evaporation of volatiles to improve aroma, or to blow away some of the off aromas ? But I bet mostly it just gives it chance to warm up from cellar temperature, which really may help.

I find very few reds are improved - or even enjoyable to drink - after a day of being open. Decanting half the bottle into a clean half bottle and re-corking seems to be the best way.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I buy a wine that I like and I drink it, if I have to alter the flavour to suit me, then it isn't a wine I like.

the pretentitious air surrounding wine is quiet absurd in this day and age, when all but the most local of wines is heavily produced and blended to give a consistant profile across a batch and from year to year, even your crazy priced stuff has been adjusted to suit.

Same applies to coffee although you do have some control as you do the final process of production yourself (grind and turn to liquid). If you don't like it, try something else.


bscene-drinkingbuddies:

It‘s pretension if you talk about wine just to impress. What I wrote in the OP is based on my personal experience and I hold the observations to be true. It’s certainly not an attempt to bluff or impress.

 

[Andy Kev.]

With some trepidation - I have drunk a fair bit of wine, been to evening classes, been on wine tasting visits with a couple of friends to Bordeaux, Northern Rhone, but still wouldn't think myself anywhere near expert ...

I've rarely heard anyone recommending decanting whites, though there is possible scope for benefit if it helps to lose some of the (IMHO, intrusive) excess sulphur dioxide often found.

Is the intention of decanting really to achieve oxidation ? I would not have thought to. Maybe to encourage evaporation of volatiles to improve aroma, or to blow away some of the off aromas ? But I bet mostly it just gives it chance to warm up from cellar temperature, which really may help.

I find very few reds are improved - or even enjoyable to drink - after a day of being open. Decanting half the bottle into a clean half bottle and re-corking seems to be the best way.

I’ve never felt the need to decant a white but I think that the heavy whites from Alsace improve if you take half a glass from the day before.

 

[Tiresias]

Tony, I think you are largely right. And Droogs to an extent - there is a lot of nonsense talked about wine. But then there is a lot of money wrapped up in it.

To steal someone else's words it was many years ago I 'first made a serious acquaintance with wine and sowed the seed of that rich harvest which was to be my stay in many barren years'.

Each to their own. Given my age and upbringing I actually drink very little French wine. New World single varietals mostly. I've been to many vineyards in NZ (I think, technically, I have an interest in a vinyard in Martinborough, but I'm pretty sure even the Kiwi courts don't regard a contract for a bet written on the back of a beer mat in Zermatt to be binding), and quite a few in Oz. Oh, and a lot in SA too.

And, now I think about it, a number in Germany as well. Hmm. Maybe I have a problem.

 

[Mike G]

Let me tell you what anosmia brings to this discussion, as the sense of smell is a surprisingly large part of everyone's sense of taste. I have been to both wine tasting and port tasting sessions, and have been unable to detect whether a glass contains water or wine (or port) by sniffing. I like a glass of wine once in a while, but the subtleties of allowing it to breathe, or the differing temperatures they are served at, are completely and utterly wasted on me. Every whiskey (or whisky) tastes the same to me (unpleasant), and every white wine tastes the same as any other. I can detect some variation in some red wines occasionally. People being able to tell whether a wine has been allowed to breathe is as unfathomable to me as how my youngest daughter can sniff you hand and tell whose hand you were holding half an hour ago.

 

[AJB Temple]

Over the years I've tried various gadgets to keep wine fresh, such as the vacu pumps etc. My son gave me a special device to aerate wine, when decanting (his godfather is a wine merchant / collector) and a thing for excluding the air, but I don't really bother.

Must admit, I think that wine boxes are a good idea (as they help to keep wine fresh) and we are finally starting to see some half decent wines in box form. I think these are brilliant for cooking and sauce making. Perfect for picnics and festivals too: lighter and fit in a portable chiller easily, and easy to carry. I used to be very anti such things, and preferred real corks and hated plastic seals - but now an open mind prevails.

And on the wine snobbery debate....it applies to everything if you choose to look at it that way. There is a current fashion for mangalitza pork. Premium wagyu burgers (pointless ?- the marbling is minced, so you could just add fat) and of course himalayan salt block refrigeration for air drying your beef cuts.

I've been on umpteen wine courses and tastings too. If you do enough then you do learn to differentiate, but the issue for me eventually was the value curve. Once you've bought en-primeur single growth wines, hit upon a good year, stored it properly either at home or BB&R or wherever, and then see the price per bottle hit £200 for say a good Ch. Palmer, then I think to myself: it's too expensive to drink and it's not worth 20 times more than a good Rioja or whatever alternative you happen to like. I think I may just be a bit mean.

 

[Tiresias]

Let me tell you what anosmia brings to this discussion

My wicketkeeper has anosmia.
How does he smell?
Didn't you listen? (or substitute alternative punch line)

How does this work? Perfectly genuine question, I am actually curious. Taste and smell are so intimately linked. So you can cook only by tasting? You can't smell when, I dunno, a curry paste is cooked? Or something is burning?

I know you have said previously that you can't smell durian. (A loss in itself, I rather like it). But what do you get when you eat it?

 

[Mike G]

I have to be really careful when I cook. My wife really doesn't like me cooking sauces or gravy, or doing stews, casseroles etc, because otherwise I just keep heaping in the flavours. Works for me, but not so much for others. Purely mechanical cooking......measuring out and preparing ingredients and then cooking them for X long.......no problem, but anything that involves any degree of taste, or any suggestion of subtlety, is just not worth the risk. When I add Cayenne pepper to saute potatoes, for instance, I have to do it by sight rather than taste.

 

[AJB Temple]

Does Indian food suit you Mike?

I am 100% happy with very spicy food. but my wife hates it. So if I want proper Indian food with subtle or hot spices, I have to cook that for my friend, rather than at home.

It's hard to imagine having little sense of smell actually.

 

[RogerS]

The act of pouring the wine into a decanter, a sloshy business

No necessarily. I have some of these - looks a bit medical, but gets the air in. And a decanter looks nicer on the table. To my mind any way.



To be absolutely honest I've not really noticed all that much difference. Certainly not for the whites I generally drink.

For red, mmm, yes, but I'm not pompous enought to imagine my palate is that good.

At a dinner once I had a 60's Lafite. I'd have to check the menu card to be sure, but maybe '67. Nothing special. And I have a gift from a neighbour of a bottle of claret, which when I looked it up it is worth over £700. Now when on earth am I going to drink that? Might use it for cooking some day.

Not really.

You nicked that from the doctor's...admit it :lol:

 

[Mike G]

Does Indian food suit you Mike? .....

Love it.

 

[AndyP]

My BIL bought us a selection of wines as a wedding present. He carefully labelled each one with a date when they could be drunk. The one we had for our 25th anniversary was a revelation. It was a Bordeaux but beyond that I've no idea. It was not the taste that got to us both but the smoothness and the effect it had going down. I did look up the price at the time it was drunk, it was in the €100 plus bracket.

I once had a a tot of a 50yr single malt whiskey. That too was less about the flavour and more about the feeling as it hit the throat and meandered down the digestive tract.

If I drink anything now it is just proper warm temperature english beer as sold by the supermarkets as speciality beers.

 

[Stuart]

Quite often people will uncork a bottle of wine ……….

Surely you mean ‘unscrew the cap’?!!

 

[Andy Kev.]

A couple of general observations on wine snobbery and wine prices.

Snobbery. If you like the taste of wine, you will never be fooled by a wine snob. The only thing you might be tempted to do - and IMO you should resist this - is to give a nod of approval to a wine that "everybody" says is terrific. An example: I recently tried a bottle from a well known chateau (so well known, I've forgotten the name) which cost about €100. Tasting showed it to be well made and it had all the qualities that were attributed to it. The problem was that I just didn't like the taste and so I intend never to drink it again. The point is that a high quality, well made wine might not be to your taste.

Prices. The law of diminishing returns applies to wine as well. Take as a simple example red burgundy. Pay 10 quid for a bottle and you should get a wine that is OK for a picnic or for general accompaniment of food. Pay 25 quid and you should notice a real leap in quality. It should be a more intensely flavoured wine than the 10 quid one and the various fruit aromas should be much more pleasant. Go to 50 quid and you should be in more or less heavenly territory. The most I've ever paid for a bottle of burgundy was 75 quid but I didn't enjoy it as much as my usual 50 quid one (usual means about 6 bottles a year) which is an Aloxe-Corton if you're half interested.

I strongly suspect that the wines will generally get better as you go up the price range but I also suspect that the degree of improvement will not be massive. It might even be minimal Perhaps Adrian could comment on that, given his experience with fine claret. Incidentally, Adrian, I don't get your rationale for ditching the wines because they had become too expensive. Surely one has to forget all notion of price while having a sip. Demystify it. Instead of opening a bottle of Chateau Palmer, crack open a pint and a bit of Harry.

The final thing is, I think, to never ever forget your favourite slugging wine at about a fiver a bottle. That's the one you want with your steak and kidney pud and chips.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Quite often people will uncork a bottle of wine ……….

Surely you mean ‘unscrew the cap’?!!

If you've got real class, you'll carefully smash the neck on the railway arch which you're sleeping under.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I remember vididly my wife (gf,then) the better part of forty years ago drinking her first red wine at a dinner party, she virtually spat it out and said what on earth is that? "That" was Lafite Rothschild. :lol:
I had a couple of hundred bottles of vintage port at one time but sold them when moving houses.

 

[AJB Temple]

To answer your question Andy....first of all, despite people trying educate me, I never got into Burgundy reds. I don't know why really.

My palate reached heaven at 1st growth Ch Margaux. When I first took wine buying seriously I was around 30 and even then Ch Margaux was seriously expensive bought by the case en primeur. But I had friendly guidance and bought a lot of Ch. Palmer 5th growth. To my taste at least, this was 95% as good, and was IMO (and that of many others) under classified. I have continued to buy Palmer, and still have some (maybe two dozen cases of various vintages) in stock vs just one Ch. Margaux. To put this in value context, en primeur Palmer most years was a third or less of the price of the real deal Premier Cru Ch Margaux and although I could easily tell the difference it was not three times better.

100% agree that wine snobs are easily identified. Typically very opinionated. I do still very much like fine wines of this quality - ie not blended at all. However, I cannot realistically justify drinking wine like Ch. M that currently sells for $800 a bottle from the likes of BB&R, even though I bought it for the equivalent of $60 a bottle a good few years ago. I kept a case because if I ever reach a ripe old age I will drink it with my son.

Can't speak for Burgundy at all, as I confess near total ignorance, but for clarets I think superb wines like Palmer are worth the money. However, if I want to drink well at everyday'ish prices, bearing in mind that like you I don't drink a great deal, then I buy aged Riojas in the £20 -£25 range because I find these quite similar (full bodied) to decent quality clarets. I am almost as happy with £15 Riojas that are typically in the supermarket fine wines sections and maybe 2016 -2018 vintage. However, in truth there is a pretty big leap IMO to a well made and well stored French Pauilliac.

But we should all drink what we like and what suits our pocket at the time. A lot of people for example are into artisan Gin at the moment, whereas I can't see the appeal at all: they all taste much the same to me (not really a spirits drinker) when they have a mixer added. Whisky is a bit different: I don't like blended whisky at all, nor do I like them too smoky (eg Laphroaig). Only really try whisky at Christmas.

 

[Harv-53]

I know bugger all about wine, I only drink red wine, it’s psychological thing I suffer a lot with reflux and on the occasions I’ve drunk white my stomach goes into overdrive.
We have a place in south of France and the local vineyard produces excellent Cabernet and merlot they are just delightful and at €6 a bottle they dont cost the earth.I normally open a bottle an hour or so before consuming it, occasionally I’ll decant a bottle but that’s normally for Christmas dinner and it looks a lot nicer on a fully set table with the posh crockery.
A client once gave me a bottle of Margaux as Christmas gift, he nearly had heart failure when I told him I’d drank it. He then went on to explain its vintage and how it should be looked after. Several years later he gave me another for my 50th and quite sternly told me to look after this one!
I’m now going to dig it out to see which one it is.

 

[AndyP]

How do convince my father that Prosecco is not champagne.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Neither are drinkable, so it doesn't really matter. :lol:

 

[AJB Temple]

Prosecco is not worse though - it's Italian, and we all know that the French copied all cuisine from Italy. :lol:

I have a real thing about champagne, in that I think most of it is absolutely awful: too acidic, too fizzy and bubbles too big. If you get really good vintage houses capable of producing subtle wine, then it is fabulous. But you really pay for this.

As I said, I am a heathen.

(If you want to bring some over next time you pop in Andy, then Billicart Salmon rose slips down very well, or if you win the lottery then vintage Krug please :lol: ). When you bring all of your women and girls for a BBQ I will serve some champagne. Consider it a promise. A

 

[AndyP]

I’ll bring some Normandy champagne . We have a very good local producer just down the road.

 

[spb]

Prosecco is not worse though - it's Italian, and we all know that the French copied all cuisine from Italy. :lol:

I have a real thing about champagne, in that I think most of it is absolutely awful: too acidic, too fizzy and bubbles too big. If you get really good vintage houses capable of producing subtle wine, then it is fabulous. But you really pay for this.

I'll agree that the cheaper champagnes generally just aren't nice. To my mind the best champagnes beat the best of any other country if price isn't considered, but for the sort of money I want to spend most of the time the English ones tend to win.

My rule of thumb is to go for champagne if the occasion is worth spending £50 a bottle, English at £20-30, and not to bother below that. Cheap prosecco is far more palatable than any of the other substitutes at the same price point, but if I'm buying bubbles then it's for an occasion that's worth spending money on.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I won a Martell Cognac tasting day ten years ago. We were taken to Galvins at Windows on the 28th floor of the Hilton for lunch by the national brand manager of Pernod Rickard. We were offered champagne, Belle Epoque, and I said I didn't like champagne. Oh, he said, you've not tried one as good as this. I said I'd tried B.E. before ........... and Dom Perignon, Krug, Cristal and a few others. OK, he said, fair enough, you don't like champagne. First class red wine and double brandies at at lunch time ...... phew.
An afternoon in the front window of Harrods, a load of Martell (bar prices up to £500 a double for L'Or), I managed £2530s worth at bar prices, was taken back to a private club for more then back to the hotel at 9.00pm with a free bottle of Martell X.O. Then I went out for the evening.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Cheap prosecco is far more palatable than any of the other substitutes at the same price point, but if I'm buying bubbles then it's for an occasion that's worth spending money on.

Lindauer is good, and the more expensive ones better but not so common now as it was.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I spoke to someone not long ago who lived for years not far from Champagne - he said he used to watch tankers from all over France bringing wine in to be processed as champagne.

 

[AJB Temple]

Cheap prosecco is far more palatable than any of the other substitutes at the same price point, but if I'm buying bubbles then it's for an occasion that's worth spending money on.

Lindauer is good, and the more expensive ones better but not so common now as it was.

I fear my name has been taken in vein Phil. I never wrote that, and leap to my own defence. :lol:

 

[Woodbloke]

We're a bit restricted with reds as SWIMBO will only imbibe those that are sulphite free or with very low level of sulphites. Ordinary red wine with sulphites (that's most of them in the supermarkets) give her a horrible 'head' in the morning. Our current fave is the organic Maris sans sulphites from Waitrose Cellar and when it's on special offer she'll order two or three cases - Rob

 

[Andy Kev.]

Now let me really put the cat amongst the cultural pigeons.

If you have ever wondered what philosophy was all about but didn't have a clue where to start and the one text you tried to read was completely incomprehensible to the point where you wondered if a deranged mind was a prerequisite for an academic career - a position which I found myself in a few years back - it would be helpful if there were a handy guidebook. If you also like a bit of wine, then there is the perfect book for you I Drink Therefore I Am by the late Roger Scruton.

Most usefully it tells you a lot about wine and it gives you enough knowledge of philosophy and philosophers to help you bluff along quite merrily with people who do seem to be knowledgeable in that area. I found it to be very entertaining but you will know whether or not this sort of thing is for you.

 

[Phil]

Must admit, I think that wine boxes are a good idea (as they help to keep wine fresh) and we are finally starting to see some half decent wines in box form.

Just on box wine.

We, locally, have a very large range of good estate wines in a box.
Packed 2L, 3L or 5L, red, white, rose’
Then you get the store house wines.
I buy the Pick-‘n-Pay dry white wine 5L for ZAR150.00 which is a good price and has not increased for the past 18 months.

I usually just clear the shelf and store it in a cupboard in the garage.

I have a friend who professes to be a wine “aficionado” spends plenty bucks on a bottle of wine.

I was given a bottle of Boschendal Elgin Sauvignon Blank (cost ZAR300+ I would never spend that on a bottle of wine) when I retired.

On the nose: An expressive aromatic nose with generous white asparagus, Tahiti lime, fleshy peach, Cape gooseberry and lemon verbena.
Palate: Limey, chalky characteristics carry through to a broad yet intricate palate detailed by a distinct minerality and riveting freshness on a lingering zesty finish.

I drank the wine one Sunday with lunch, really so-so, still trying to find the ‘lemon verbena’!

I washed and sterilised the bottle as I knew at some stage we would get visitors and I could use it.

My friend the wine “aficionado” and wife were coming to dinner.
I duly decanted from my 5L PnP dry white box into the Boschendal bottle, and then into the fridge to cool down. White must be cold.
Dinner proceeded with 2 of us drinking the wine (wives don’t drink)
My friend raved about the wine, the nose, the palate.
I just smiled and agreed all the way.

MikeG mentioned Port.
The best Port that I have bought is Ferreira Ruby Port in Porto. The port houses (warehouses) are situated on the Douro river in Porto.
Locally we also have some good ports:
Allesverloren
Boplaas
Landskroon

Locally we also have a good sherry, Sedgwick Old Brown or just OB’s. :lol:
(It is cheap and can cause severe headache!)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Ferreira I believe was made heavier after 1977. I had a few dozen '63s that were too light to keep for more than a couple of decades. The formulation of some brands drifts a bit over the years as the ownership of the Houses and their main market changes - different Countries have different tastes. The prices started to rocket when the Americans got a taste for it, now it's probably made and marketed to suit the Chinese. I've still got some 1977 Taylor's somewhere.

 

[Phil]

I have a bottle of KWV 1949 Port which was a birthday present about 30 years ago. Been kept for a special occasion.
When I hit 75 I will "trash" the bottle!