Machine Sanding

[Windows]

Does anyone know of a resource that covers pros and cons of different types of machine sanding? Even something that just explains a single manufacturer’s range?

There are so many different models and I don’t know anything about sanding.

Like when would I use a handheld belt sander vs a rotary sander? Do I need random orbit or is elliptical or circular fine? Do RO sanders have worse vibrations? If you only have one sander, how big should it be?

The kind of tasks I might use a sander for are rehabbing a kitchen counter, keying an old wooden floor for painting, prepping windows/doors for painting, perhaps a tiny amount of smoothing filler in walls or wood, removing tear out after some bad planing, that kind of thing.

What are the basic things that someone who knows nothing would need to know about electric sanders to at least understand what options are available in the world of hand held sanders?

The one thing I do know about sanders is that dust and vibration are both harmful. Are particular models or manufacturers better for dust extraction and low vibration?

Thanks for any pointers you can offer.

 

[AJB Temple]

I use a Mirka Deros with festool extraction and abranet for practically everything these days. 3mm ROS and huge range of grits. I can strip a table top of varnish and take it down to finish sanded in
under 30 minutes. Superb tool. Zero dust pretty much as always used with an extractor.

For green oak and large areas I use the largest Makita belt sander. This is almost as good as planing rough stuff, when a 40 belt is fitted, and I run belts up to 180. Had it for years and would not be without it.

These two do everything I need, with the exception of getting into tight corners, for which a multitool with triangular sanding pad does the job.

I use scrapers quite a bit too.

 

[Malc2098]

I'm afraid I don't know of a resource, but just googling your words I came up with this.

Which one should you choose?

Personally, I've ended up with a Festool Rotex 90 for my work with Festool extraction. I like it. the 90mm disc size is ideal for my instruments, with RO and rotary, as well as triangular. It also takes polishing pads. The extraction is great. I mainly buy my Festool stuff second hand. I read many tradesmen are going over to battery power, so places like Facebook Marketplace readily show 240v and 110v machines at reasonable prices for that quality.

 

[RogerS]

Google's AI is your friend for these questions. For example, I put in this sentence into Google's search
Like when would I use a handheld belt sander vs a rotary sander?

This is what the AI came up with. Not had time to read it in detail.

 

[AndyT]

If I was in your situation I'd have a look at Peter Millard's YouTube channel. He's a genuinely decent bloke who has earned his living as a handyman then installer of built in furniture, before turning to YouTube. He's made several videos about sanders which could be what you need.

Peter Millard

Welcome. Iâm Peter Millard and Iâm here to help you make the most of your time in the workshop. Follow along and get real, no-nonsense, honest advise from someone whoâs been exactly where you are - Subscribe now and join the 10-minute workshop team - Iâm here to help folks just like you. All...

youtube.com

 

[GarF]

+1 for RO90 - brilliant for skirtings, doors and architrave. Has to be a significantly larger area before I'm tempted to switch to 150mm metabo

 

[Mike]

In addition to all of the above, there is an EU workplace standard for hand tool vibration and noise, and I suspect there is also an equivalent HSE document for the UK workplace. These don't apply to hobbyists, but they are a good reference point if you can decipher the formula that factors impulse, duration of each operation, and the number of times each operation is done in eight hours. Most professional tool manufacturers (Festool, Hilti, Mirka, Bosch Pro, etc.) will publish the vibration information on the webpage for the tool so you don't have to go on a holy quest to find it. I have not seen any hobbyist grade tools (such as Bosch green) list this information other than in the owner's manual buried in the fine print. The unit of measure for vibration is meters per second squared (m/s^2), with lower numbers being better.

I used to have a Bosch PEX 300 random orbital sander (ROS). It was inexpensive and I could buy replacement sanding pads at any of the big box hardware stores in my area. However, the vibration was so bad that I could only use the sander for 15 or 20 minutes before my hand was nearly numb. The dust collection left much to be desired, even though I connected it to my Kärcher shop vacuum. The numbness timeout coincided with the air scrubber break of at least 45 minutes to allow the AC400 to mostly remove the suspended dust, as monitored by the Dylos DC1700 Air Quality Meter. However, even after a 45-minute break, my hands were still ringing after the sanding operation.

Later, I learned the relevancy of PEX 300 vibration rating of 9m/s^2. This rating was in the manual, but I didn't understand what it was or why it was important. Also, because the Kärcher was a single speed vacuum, the sanding disk tended to adhere quite well to the work piece, which meant I had to fight the effects of the vacuum in addition to the vibration. Strangely, the excessive vacuum also inhibited the dust extraction and I could always see lots of dust flying around the edge of the sanding disk.

The vibration rating of my Festool ETS 150 EC ROS is 5m/s^2, and it connects to a Festool CTL 26 E dust extractor. One might be tempted to think the difference between 5 and 9 meters per second squared is not a lot, but this is a measurement of accelleration, and nearly doubling the value has a tremendous effect on the flesh and bones holding it. The lower vibration rating means I can use the ROS continuously for a longer period of time before my hand is numb. I don't know what that time period is because I always finish a large sanding project before the vibration reaches my threshold. Also, the ability to reduce the suction on the CTL 26 E allows me to maximize the extraction without causing the sander to adhere to the work piece because of the vacuum. Any variable speed vacuum would work, but I use the Festool extractors because they integrate nicely with the tools.

I don't think there is a one-sander-fits-all solution, and fortunately Festool provides many solutions to my sanding issues. I could likely smooth out a rough 2-meter long slab of walnut with the RO 150 if given enough time, but the BS 75E turns this into a quick and easy job.

 

[AJB Temple]

^^ I agree about vibration. It's very important. I think there is a reason why many pros use either Festool or Mirka. Lack of fatigue in use is creitical for me. Last week I sanded three fill size oak fire doors both sides ready for finishing. Did it all in one go. No issues.

 

[Windows]

Thanks all.

Looking at vibration numbers, I see “Fine sanding: Total vibration average, Ah: 5 m/s²” for Festool RO 90 and “Vibration Level, Sanding Metal Plate ≤ 2,5 m/s²” for Makita 4” belt sander. Are these comparable figures? The text is confusing.

Based on what little I know about the construction of these machines, I’d expect a (well-made) belt sander to vibrate less than an RO sander which is perhaps what these figures show. Is that the case? I’m not planning to sand metal plate very often.

Festool Geared eccentric sander RO 90 DX FEQ-Plus 230V ROTEX online

Festool Geared eccentric sander RO 90 DX FEQ-Plus 230V ROTEX â Powerful 4-in-1 solution â Coarse sanding â Fine sanding â â All information directly from the manufacturer ⨠www.festool.co.uk

www.festool.co.uk

9403 - Belt Sander

Product

www.makitauk.com

 

[Windows]

Could someone confirm that Festool no longer sells a belt sander in the UK?

How does the Festool ETSC 125 compare to the Festool and Mirka sanders you all use the most? It claims vibration of 3.00 m/s²

Festool Cordless eccentric sander ETSC 125-Basic-ERGO online

Festool Cordless eccentric sander ETSC 125-Basic-ERGO â Maximum mobility â Powerful and durable â Work without interruptions â â All information directly from the manufacturer ⨠www.festool.co.uk

www.festool.co.uk

On the Mirka sanders, do you have to keep the paddle depressed for continuous operation? Is that awkward?

This page was somewhat useful for getting an overview of the Festool sanding lineup:

Which Festool Sander to Buy? We Compare All Models From $249 to $1395

If you've spent any time on the internet in the world of woodworking, cabinetry, or professional painting, you've undoubtedly seen a lot of Festool products. Their sanders, dust extractors, domino joiners, and other hand tools are hard to miss with their distinctive green color and handy...

www.seriousgrit.com

EDIT: Note ETSC sanders are brushless, not brushed as the Serious Grit feature table shows. Also look at date of article when considering whether price and other info is current.

 

[wallace]

With regard to vibration the general person will not be hugely affected with irregular use. Problems arise with daily use for long periods. There are things you can do to reduce problems like wear padded gloves and make sure your hands are warm, take lots of breaks on big jobs.
I worked with pneumatic recip saws and then hilti electric ones for upto 12hrs a day. The company spent a fortune on a study filming in high speed and then working out how long it took to cut each nail on a pallet. And then said we were only exposed to vibration for that time, even though we still had hold of the tool and it was running. The levels of white finger and carpal tunnel were unreal, it was like being in the shipyards of old. Well not that bad

 

[Mike]

Could someone confirm that Festool no longer sells a belt sander in the UK?

Unfortunately, Festool is silent when it comes to discontinued products. Disappearing from the online catalogs is usually the first sign that consumers have about the product line change.

I bought my BS 75 E earlier this year from a Festool distributor. The store didn't have it in stock, but ordered it from Festool and had it drop shipped to my house. Now I see the BS 75 E, and variants, are not shown on the U.S, UK, and Germany Festool sites. This indicates to me that it has been discontinued, as the same thing happened a few years ago with the larger BS 105 E.

Update: I don't know how I missed this, but the BS 75 E-Plus and E-Set are still on the German Festool site.

Festool Bandschleifer BS 75 E-Plus online

Festool Bandschleifer BS 75 E-Plus â Für schnellen Abtrag â Für eine saubere Arbeit â Für ausdauerndes Arbeiten â â online kaufen direkt beim Hersteller ⨠www.festool.de

www.festool.de

 

[AJB Temple]

On the Mirka yes you do have to keep the paddle depressed. It is also partly the speed control (you also set the power range from a push button). It can go very slow or very fast. Slow is useful in some applications where heat build up avoidance is desirable. Very easy to use for me and not tiring. The machine head is compact and light.

I personally find that belt sanders are a lot more aggressive, and you notice the machine movement more. But to be fair although I have a couple the one I actually use is a big and powerful Makita.

 

[Mike G]

OK, help me with this......

Other than the shape, what's the difference between a half-sheet sander, and a ROS? I've got the former, and haven't used it for years and years.

 

[AJB Temple]

Massive speed difference. A good ROS with abranet (or abrasive opads if you want cheaper) will shift material very rapidly, and can also run to a very fine finish and even do polishing. Mine is used a lot - also by my wife as it is very handy for decorating. Almost zero dust as it is all sucked through the abranet. I actually enjoy sanding with this thing - work is transformed in front of your eyes.

 

[Malc2098]

The half sheet will just go round and round. The ROS will rotate randomly while also going round and round…..

….I think.

 

[Woodbloke]

I've got a German made, dark green, two speed Metabo ROS which I bought at least twenty years ago, so pre-dating the Festool and Mirka sanders by some margin. The thing is built like a Tiger tank and thought about selling it some time ago to update it; I was advised not to as it's as good as, maybe better than many current offerings - Rob

 

[Ovaloe]

^^ I agree about vibration. It's very important. I think there is a reason why many pros use either Festool or Mirka. Lack of fatigue in use is creitical for me.

Festool and Mirka are similar in a few respects, namely:

1. Dust extraction
2. Reliability/repairability
3. Low noise/vibration
4. Low weight
5. Ergonomics

I think most trades I know who have bought them cite dust extraction ascthe number one concern - both on health grounds and time saving cleaning up at the end of a job. The other items in the list are a bonus.

 

[Ovaloe]

I read many tradesmen are going over to battery power, so places like Facebook Marketplace readily show 240v and 110v machines at reasonable prices for that quality

Whilst that is true, it doesn't apply to tools like a 4in belt sander. Those lumps are built to run for hours on end taking off large amounts of material (e.g. paint, rot, high joints, etc). There are a few cordless belt sanders, but in comparison to a corded tool they lack power, and with belt sanders power is all. Belt sanders have been disappearing from tradesmens kits for many years, however, with the wider adoption of pre-hung doorsets and the greater use of wide belt sanders in shops IMHO

 

[Windows]

So, any Festool experts know about sanding pads?

1. Can different diameter pads be attached to any of the Festool sanders after purchase? For example, can you get a 125 mm sander and attach a 150 mm pad later?

2. Does “jet stream” (more holes) make a significant difference to dust extraction? It’s curious that the Rotex 150 comes with a jet stream pad, but the smaller rotexes do not. Is it possible to switch, for example, the Rotex 125 to a jet stream pad after purchase?

Also have there been any generation changes without model number changes that I’d need to look out for if considering 2nd hand Festool sanders?

Thanks for any insight you might have on this.

 

[Mike]

So, any Festool experts know about sanding pads?

1. Can different diameter pads be attached to any of the Festool sanders after purchase? For example, can you get a 125 mm sander and attach a 150 mm pad later?

Here is a link to a post on the Festool Owners Group that confirms the 150mm pad will fit and function properly on the ETS EC 125 sander:

ETS EC 125/150?

ETS EC 125/150?

www.festoolownersgroup.com

2. Does “jet stream” (more holes) make a significant difference to dust extraction? It’s curious that the Rotex 150 comes with a jet stream pad, but the smaller rotexes do not. Is it possible to switch, for example, the Rotex 125 to a jet stream pad after purchase?

The difference might be due to the smaller pad area that limits the number of vacuum ports in the sanding pad. I have the RO 150 and RO 90 and haven't noticed an excess of escaping dust from the smaller sander. My only point of reference with a non-Festool ROS is the Bosch PEX 300 I referenced earlier. The difference in dust collection between the ETS EC 150/3 and the PEX 300 is night and day.

Also have there been any generation changes without model number changes that I’d need to look out for if considering 2nd hand Festool sanders?

Thanks for any insight you might have on this.

I think the machine part number changes any time there is a change to the design, regardless of the magnitude or importance of the change. For example, my MFK 700 EQ was replaced with a newer model, and machine part number, but neither the dealer nor I could spot the difference. In the case of the OF 1010, the new model has a significantly different dust extraction connection and edge guide, but the change is not enough for me to replace my older OF 1010 since it didn't stop working immediately after the new model was released.

I haven't purchased any second-hand power tools (yet), but would not be put off by the age of Festool or Mirka tools. Before purchasing, I would inspect the tool closely for signs of obvious abuse or neglect. I realize some people don't treat their tools the same way I do, but reasonable wear and tear might not put me off if the price reflected the condition.

Note: I updated my earlier post about the belt sander. The BS 75 E series sanders are still on the German Festool website as current models.

 

[Windows]

Thanks Mike. That’s very helpful.

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

I am interested in getting a better sander. I have a very cheap (and nasty) 1/3 sheet orbital sander. I bought a red Makita belt sander which is good for heavy stuff, but I need to buy some belts. I have seen on line lots of reviews for the Mirka Deros and Festool rotex. It was only when in an Axminster store recently that I realised the size and weight difference of the two. The Deros is much smaller and lighter.

Adrian I think you said you had a Deros with a 3mm orbit. When looking on line the only ones I have seen seem to have a 5mm orbit. Does this make much difference? Is there a different part number for the 3mm variant?

Thanks

Mark

 

[Jonathan]

Mirka Deros Is a different machine to the Festool Rotex, a better comparison would be the Festool ETS.
I have both machines and use the ETS 99% of the time. Rotex only comes out if I want heavy aggressive sanding.
The the ETS and Deros 3 and 5 refers to the size of the swirls it produces as it spins around, 5 is good for general joinery 3 is better for high end stuff

 

[Windows]

I linked to the serious grit summary of Festool sanders earlier. Please note that there’s at least one part of their table of models and features that is incorrect where they say the ETSC cordless sanders are brushed motors. Of course the battery-powered ETSC sanders are in fact brushless motors as you might expect them to be.

Which Festool Sander to Buy? We Compare All Models From $249 to $1395

If you've spent any time on the internet in the world of woodworking, cabinetry, or professional painting, you've undoubtedly seen a lot of Festool products. Their sanders, dust extractors, domino joiners, and other hand tools are hard to miss with their distinctive green color and handy...

www.seriousgrit.com

Their article was written May 2023, so also don’t expect the prices to be current.

 

[AJB Temple]

Yes. 3mm. if you buy a Deros I suggest 3mm will do everything you are likely to need. Mine came with 125mm and 150mm bases and a spanner to change them. I've never owned the ETS but have used one. Both are excellent but I found the Deros was more comfortable for me and for my wife. Either way, right from the off, buy a velcro saver pad as it is much cheaper to replace these than the disk heads. Their purpose is to preserve the velcro on the disk head, which is obviously subject to twisting forces.

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

Yes. 3mm. if you buy a Deros I suggest 3mm will do everything you are likely to need. Mine came with 125mm and 150mm bases and a spanner to change them. I've never owned the ETS but have used one. Both are excellent but I found the Deros was more comfortable for me and for my wife. Either way, right from the off, buy a velcro saver pad as it is much cheaper to replace these than the disk heads. Their purpose is to preserve the velcro on the disk head, which is obviously subject to twisting forces.

That’s interesting as I can find lots of 650s for sale with a 5mm orbit. I have found some 625s with a 2.5mm orbit, but no 630s which is what I assume the 3mm orbit variant is named. Perhaps they have switched from a 3mm orbit to a 2.5mm orbit.

 

[AJB Temple]

That’s interesting as I can find lots of 650s for sale with a 5mm orbit. I have found some 625s with a 2.5mm orbit, but no 630s which is what I assume the 3mm orbit variant is named. Perhaps they have switched from a 3mm orbit to a 2.5mm orbit.

Yes, the Deros II is the latest model and is 2.5. I would get that over the 5 model unless you intend to do a lot of 40 or 80 grit work and want rapid material removal.

 

[Windows]

Following all my research and your advice, I went with a Festool ETSC 125 in an ERGO set which is the bare tool in a systainer with single battery. (I already have a charger). D&M Tools for £315. As I use it more I’ll decide whether the single battery is enough (hopefully) or if I need another battery or the mains adapter instead. Got some flexibility.

The ETSC uses a different shape battery than other Festool tools, so if it hadn’t been for the limited edition free battery set, I might have gone for a corded tool since paying for a battery on top would have pushed it out of my price range. Although the battery is a different shape, all the chargers can charge it, so didn’t need to worry about that.

For a pad saver, I got the Bosch Expert Mesh Wood Sanding Net Starter Kit at Screwfix. It’s a pad saver and two M480 mesh discs at each of 80, 120, 180 grit for £13.50 which seemed competitive with multipack prices for those items. I have some abranet and other abrasives already, but haven’t tried Bosch M480, so seemed worth it.

Haven’t done much more than turn it on so far, but it’s so much smoother than the sanders I’ve been using and variable speed too. An obvious improvement.

I also took a punt on a £40 Titan 3” belt sander and a couple of Bosch belts for fun.

 

[AJB Temple]

I've never been that convinced by battery sanders as the high end ones really must have extraction connected so a cable as well is no big deal. But anyway, great choice and I'm sure you will be pleased.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

3M Cubitron is the stuff to look for.