• Hi all and welcome to TheWoodHaven2 brought into the 21st Century, kicking and screaming! We all have Alasdair to thank for the vast bulk of the heavy lifting to get us here, no more so than me because he's taken away a huge burden of responsibility from my shoulders and brought us to this new shiny home, with all your previous content (hopefully) still intact! Please peruse and feed back. There is still plenty to do, like changing the colour scheme, adding the banner graphic, tweaking the odd setting here and there so I have added a new thread in the 'Technical Issues, Bugs and Feature Requests' forum for you to add any issues you find, any missing settings or just anything you'd like to see added/removed from the feature set that Xenforo offers. We will get to everything over the coming weeks so please be patient, but add anything at all to the thread I mention above and we promise to get to them over the next few days/weeks/months. In the meantime, please enjoy!

Oak dining table build (complete, and inside)

Superb, Andy. Narrow breadboard ends as well. I'll be edge-joining my boards, but a little round-over, unevenly done say with a spokeshave, might be subtle enough.

There's one school of thought that those stretchers are at ground level because the damp floors covered in straw and goodness-knows-what rotted the ends of the legs down. Another says they were all made that way in the first place, and the stretchers were there to enable people to sit with their feet raised above the filth. I'm not sure we'll ever be able to find out.
 
Great WIP MikeG, learning tons and will be watching closely.
Me as well.

I can see from @AndyT's pictures, were the idea for our Multiyork copy may have come from, the difference being, ours has central stretcher.

I had forgotten that I made a small table in the same style years ago, I will try and dig it out, as its been relegated to a place of retired projects.
 
You say the sapwood will be encased Mike, in my case I think the beggers were in the sapwood before I included it into the build, hence my comment on moisture content.
I’ve nearly always bought my Oak with a waney edge and it was surprising how often there were live worms just under the bark in the sapwood.
 
Those two pieces were out of my stock. I've had them for years and years. There are no worm holes.
 
It's a mixture of 2" and 1" boards, waney edged, kiln dried (to 5%!!), and many of the thicker boards aren't flat:
5% MC! That is very interesting. I've never heard of any timber processor deliberately drying timber to such a low MC. There are two main reasons for not doing so that I can think of: the first being cost, and the second being that wood so dry sometimes doesn't machine well, e.g., machining can result in things like wooliness.

Were you able to verify that MC, perhaps as definitively as undertaking an oven drying test? Having said that even if the wood had been dried to 5% MC it could have gained quite a lot of moisture since coming out of the kiln, perhaps weeks or months previously.

Just curious, but it's interesting to watch the project develop. Slainte.
 
5% MC! That is very interesting. I've never heard of any timber processor deliberately drying timber to such a low MC. There are two main reasons for not doing so that I can think of: the first being cost, and the second being that wood so dry sometimes doesn't machine well, e.g., machining can result in things like wooliness.

Were you able to verify that MC, perhaps as definitively as undertaking an oven drying test? Having said that even if the wood had been dried to 5% MC it could have gained quite a lot of moisture since coming out of the kiln, perhaps weeks or months previously.

Just curious, but it's interesting to watch the project develop. Slainte.
I simply checked it with my own moisture meter when I got it home. My assumption is that it must have come out of the kiln in the previous few days. These weren't rogue readings, either, as I checked most of the boards, and then random bits of wood around the workshop, to make sure the meter was working correctly. I was as surprised as you when I saw 5%. The major implications for me are that the wood is more brittle than normal, and that I am going to have to allow for expansion, rather than the more normal contraction, in cross-grain joints such as the breadboard ends and where the brackets meet the head and foot of the pedestals. Brittleness has already shown iteslf when chiseling off the waste of tenon cheeks, with lumps breaking out unexpectedly, causing the chisel to follow thgrough and damage the shoulder. Chopping across the grain at the ends of mortices also feels more difficult than normal.
 
Brittleness has already shown iteslf when chiseling off the waste of tenon cheeks, with lumps breaking out unexpectedly, causing the chisel to follow thgrough and damage the shoulder. Chopping across the grain at the ends of mortices also feels more difficult than normal.
Yes, that's another symptom, perhaps challenge being a better word, of very dry wood I could have mentioned, it's hardness which frequently makes it quite unpleasant to use. In oak, a hard hardwood anyway, that makes it doubly unpleasant. I know that carvers much prefer either air dried oak, or even stuff that's still almost green.

You seem to have tested enough to be sure what you have was 5% MC. It would be interesting, if you have time, to do an oven drying test for MC. It takes about 30 minutes in a microwave, but it may be the case that there's been quite a bit of moisture regain since you purchased the stuff.

I still find it hard to believe that anyone would purposely dry wood to a 5% MC target when here in Europe the target for interior furniture grade stuff has historically been 12% MC ±3%. I do know there have been talks of perhaps reducing the target somewhat, but surely not to 5% MC? Slainte.
 
@Richard

In light of this conversation, I went around the workshop prodding my moisture meter at all sorts of bits of wood. The highest reading I got was 10.3, but most of it was 8.5 to 9.5.

Here's one of the pieces of oak I bought last week:

IMG_8619.jpg

......and then I pulled this piece of oak out of storage (in the workshop), where it has been sine 2018 (it's dated):

IMG_8617.jpg

Now, either that suggests that my moisture meter is quirky and reads oak differently from pine and beech (the other wood I measured in the workshop), or that oak from Thorogoods is over-cooked routinely, and doesn't actually re-hydrate over time in the way we'd all expect.

I have a really good relationship with a couple of the guys at Thorogoods, and one of them walked me through the process of bringing oak into their yard( and this is just oak, not the many other timbers they deal with). They buy it air dried (from France), and then depending on what they propose doing with it, they kiln dry it here to finish it off. He said that their kiln is a bit "agricultural", and is heat-based, rather than being a big dehumidifier, and there is no fan to move the air around inside when it's cooking. They time the timber to assess when to take it out, rather than rely on a humidistat, or some sort of moisture reading of the timber. So, I suspect they are inadvertantly over-cooking it. I'll give them a ring tomorrow.
 
I have managed a few hours here and there, and have made some decent progress.

Remember the central post which had some de-barked wane? Well, I sorted it out:

IMG_8584.jpg

IMG_8585.jpg

IMG_8586.jpg

Note the screws acting as (temporary) clamps. And note my cordless Stanley screwdriver, as my battery powered one was elsewhere.

A day or two later, after ripping off the excess on the bandsaw, I planed it up:

IMG_8601.jpg

You might glimpse later that when it was cut to length, and then had the shoulders and cheeks removed for the big tenon, there was no remnant of the chamfer. I didn't get a specific photo, unfortunately.

Meanwhile, there are some very long shoulders to cut in the brackets for a tenon on each end. They were all done by knife first, then removing a sliver to leave a little trench to guide the tenon saw (a Sandvik, which is my longest tenon saw), then hogging off the waste with a 1-1/2" chisel, then paring, and finally planing with a no.10 Coachmaker's Rebate Plane (lots of checking with straight-edges and calipers). A router plane didn't work as of course these pieces hadn't been thicknessed, or in any way regularised......they'd just had each face roughly flattened by hand.....which meant that there wasn't a reference face to work from with a router plane:

IMG_8587.jpg

IMG_8588.jpg

IMG_8589.jpg

IMG_8590.jpg

Now, going back to the conversation about over-dried wood, here is a real-life consequence:

IMG_8591.jpg

My second line of chiseling (before I'd got used to the behaviour of the wood) led to a chunk breaking off prematurely, and me following through with the chisel and taking a lump out of the shoulder. I set the piece carefully on one side, finished the joint, and then before closing up for the evening I glued it back in place. There's a photo in the next post.

Here's the router NOT working. Well, you know, it worked perfectly well, but it took me a second or three to realise that it wasn't going to be of much help as it simply off-set from a not-necessarily-parallel face:

IMG_8592.jpg

The tenons complete:

IMG_8593.jpg

Here is the bracket being offered into place for the marking of the mortice, held against a reference straight edge:

IMG_8594.jpg

As a result of years of experience with green oak framing, I routinely drill peg holes before chopping out the associated mortice. This means that the hole will definitely line up (which isn't guaranteed when drilling in from each side into a void in the middle), and it means there is no break-out inside the mortice. Drilling these holes wasn't easy, because the only drill I had of the diameter I wanted had a lead screw, which grabbed the work-piece up from the pillar drill table, meaning I had to clamp down for each of 56 holes........tedious, to say the least. To guide the lead screw into the right place, I tapped the wood lightly with a very small punch first:

IMG_8595.jpg

IMG_8596.jpg

With small mortices, I just chop them out with a chisel. With big ones like these, I drilled out the bulk first with a Forstner bit, which has the great virtue of leaving a level "floor" to the mortice, and of course speeds up the process enormously:

IMG_8603.jpg

Then it's just a question of chiseling, paring, checking for square, and offering-up-and-adjusting:

IMG_8597.jpg

IMG_8598.jpg

IMG_8599.jpg

I tidied all the shoulders up as a job lot, a little later in the process.

Here's the allowance I have made for expansion of the bracket (and we'll come back to this later):

IMG_8600.jpg

That's 9 or 10mm, which is unnecessarily too much, and I reduced slightly with the others.

Having done one, it was just rinse and repeat for the other side:

IMG_8602.jpg

Back in a sec........
 
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I do like the practical fix on the waney edge. You can get away with that sort of thing underneath a table, down in the shadows. Trouble is, there's a chap who posts on here said he'd come round to my place with a torch and check my little table for such tricks. You want to watch out for him, I think he lives in your neck of the woods! 🤣
 
Here's that little chip I mentioned being glued back into place. Note the first bit of plastic I put my hand on, to prevent the clamping block getting stuck to the repair:

IMG_8604.jpg

And here is what it looks like now, having been cleaned up with a plane ( @AndyP note the black glue-line!):

IMG_8605.jpg

I'll test stain that, and if it shows up badly I'll just plane it away. It's in quite a hidden location, though, luckily.

The bottom of the next bracket was then fitted into its mortice (and that's quite a long process with mortice of this size):

IMG_8606.jpg

The chalk indicates a high spot for planing. Having finished chopping away at the foot of the pedestal, I could bandsaw away between the two half-holes:

IMG_8607.jpg

IMG_8608.jpg

With the two brackets in place I marked for some minor adjustments to the shoulders, and sorted them out. This enabled me to the accurately place the shoulders of the central post:

IMG_8609.jpg

A glimpse at the top of that top tenon shows that the spliced-on piece has allowed for a full sized tenon. Next up I turned to the top part of the assembly, which is just a slightly narrower copy of the pedestal foot. Unfortunately I made a mistake with cutting my stock up, and it ended up a couple of inches short of my intended length. No matter......but very annoying.

I chopped out the central mortice of the top piece, and offered this up into place so that I could correctly locate the mortices for the brackets:

IMG_8611.jpg

My priority was that the top and bottom piece should align:

IMG_8612.jpg

Don't worry, you won't get repetition of my drilling and chopping mortices. Here's the top piece duly morticed:

IMG_8615.jpg

Chopping out mortices and tenons by hand means you are standing in piles of this stuff all the time:

IMG_8614.jpg

The top fitted like an absolute charm. I was very surprised that all the shoulders were so good:

IMG_8616.jpg

To finish with, let's return to the overly-dry wood issue. Having wood liable to take on moisture (rather than dry out), means I have to allow for expansion in making my joints, so I thought I would open up the pieces to their maximum extent to demonstrate how much movement this piece will be able to cope with. Obviously they'll be glued to the central post eventually, but this shows how much the pieces can expand if required:

IMG_8620.jpg

IMG_8621.jpg

Obviously this means that the peg holes will have to be suitably elongated, but that's for another day.
 
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I do like the practical fix on the waney edge. You can get away with that sort of thing underneath a table, down in the shadows. Trouble is, there's a chap who posts on here said he'd come round to my place with a torch and check my little table for such tricks. You want to watch out for him, I think he lives in your neck of the woods! 🤣
Even he wouldn't find this, though. It's going to be fully encapsulated.
 
Is there going to be a rail Mike to stop it rocking? As you know, ours is 500+ years old, and has a pegged rail. It still rocks a bit (but it is a tad worn after that long). If I knock the peg in with a rubber mallet that pretty much locks it.

However, the top on ours is much thicker than yours so there is more weight to deal with.

Edit: I've just gone back to the original drawing and seen there is a carved and pegged rail (quite high up). I was put of the scent because there is no slot in the ends of your legs at the moment.

Nice (and quick) work btw. As usual.
 
Is there going to be a rail Mike to stop it rocking? .....
Edit: I've just gone back to the original drawing and seen there is a carved and pegged rail (quite high up). I was put of the scent because there is no slot in the ends of your legs at the moment.

Yep, you've spotted it. It may well end up a bit lower. I'm not sure why I drew it so high. Actually, chopping out the mortice for that is the very next job on the agenda.
Nice (and quick) work btw. As usual.

Thank you.
 
.....the top on ours is much thicker than yours so there is more weight to deal with........

How thick is yours? (I know I've seen it, but I didn't measure).

I have a trick up my sleeve for additional stability. The first hints of it will be coming up soon.
 
How thick is yours? (I know I've seen it, but I didn't measure).

I have a trick up my sleeve for additional stability. The first hints of it will be coming up soon.
About 3 inches. Adzed oak. Dead rough underneath. The legs are about the same and so is the rail - almost as if they made the whole thing from the same thick planks.....It's not exactly fine cabinetmaking to be honest, but has patina and wear and we love it.

Interested to see your stability trick.

Our table is actually a bit low. Maybe 1 1/4" lower than our modern ones. Shorter people I guess. The rail is low enough to get your feet on (and is worn because of that) and that was probably quite useful.
 
About 3 inches. Adzed oak. Dead rough underneath. The legs are about the same and so is the rail - almost as if they made the whole thing from the same thick planks.....It's not exactly fine cabinetmaking to be honest, but has patina and wear and we love it.

Interested to see your stability trick.

Our table is actually a bit low. Maybe 1 1/4" lower than our modern ones. Shorter people I guess. The rail is low enough to get your feet on (and is worn because of that) and that was probably quite useful.
3"! Wow :oops:
 
This is coming on very nicely Mike. The odd worm hole and chisel slip will only add to the character that you'll otherwise have to add deliberately.

I bet it's fun dealing with these chunky components. It certainly makes my chairs look a bit fiddly!
 
In light of this conversation, I went around the workshop prodding my moisture meter at all sorts of bits of wood. The highest reading I got was 10.3, but most of it was 8.5 to 9.5.

... then depending on what they propose doing with it, they kiln dry it here to finish it off. He said that their kiln is a bit "agricultural", and is heat-based, rather than being a big dehumidifier, and there is no fan to move the air around inside when it's cooking. They time the timber to assess when to take it out, rather than rely on a humidistat, or some sort of moisture reading of the timber. So, I suspect they are inadvertantly over-cooking it. I'll give them a ring tomorrow.
All this is very interesting to me, that you get such low readings with your moisture meter, albeit a board or two from some of your older stock tested at above 10% MC. As Cabinetman mentioned some moisture meters come with a chart for making allowances for the structure of different wood species which can affect the transmission of electrical signals. Of course, if you really wanted to you could verify the accuracy of your moisture meter by comparing its readings with samples put through the oven drying MC test as I mentioned earlier. But understandably that takes time which you may not have nor have any inclination to give, and you already trust your meter.

Your talk with the people at Thoroghgoods could be revealing because, for one, that sounds like a bit of a weird kiln lacking, as it does, even a fan. Slainte.
 
It was not so unusual back then. I've seen quite a few tudor / elizabethan planked tables where the oak (sometimes elm) was clearly riven and the planks were just dimensioned at the ends so they looked the same thickness to casual observation but could differ by half an inch on the underside. Ours is made of three wide planks, but often you would get four. The battens beneath are also hewn and not smoothed - nor are they dead square. Of course, a lot of stuff has not survived.
 
All this is very interesting to me, that you get such low readings with your moisture meter, albeit a board or two from some of your older stock tested at above 10% MC. As Cabinetman mentioned some moisture meters come with a chart for making allowances for the structure of different wood species which can affect the transmission of electrical signals. Of course, if you really wanted to you could verify the accuracy of your moisture meter by comparing its readings with samples put through the oven drying MC test as I mentioned earlier. But understandably that takes time which you may not have nor have any inclination to give, and you already trust your meter.

Your talk with the people at Thoroghgoods could be revealing because, for one, that sounds like a bit of a weird kiln lacking, as it does, even a fan. Slainte.
Interesting. I use a moisture meter as well, but I don't worry too much about spot on accuracy - I just want to have an idea of dryness and more importantly consistency in the wood I am using for a piece of work. I must admit I've never had a reading anywhere near as low as 5%, even for tonewoods.
 
@Richard

In light of this conversation, I went around the workshop prodding my moisture meter at all sorts of bits of wood. The highest reading I got was 10.3, but most of it was 8.5 to 9.5.

Here's one of the pieces of oak I bought last week:

View attachment 37122

......and then I pulled this piece of oak out of storage (in the workshop), where it has been sine 2018 (it's dated):

View attachment 37121

Now, either that suggests that my moisture meter is quirky and reads oak differently from pine and beech (the other wood I measured in the workshop), or that oak from Thorogoods is over-cooked routinely, and doesn't actually re-hydrate over time in the way we'd all expect.

I have a really good relationship with a couple of the guys at Thorogoods, and one of them walked me through the process of bringing oak into their yard( and this is just oak, not the many other timbers they deal with). They buy it air dried (from France), and then depending on what they propose doing with it, they kiln dry it here to finish it off. He said that their kiln is a bit "agricultural", and is heat-based, rather than being a big dehumidifier, and there is no fan to move the air around inside when it's cooking. They time the timber to assess when to take it out, rather than rely on a humidistat, or some sort of moisture reading of the timber. So, I suspect they are inadvertantly over-cooking it. I'll give them a ring tomorrow.
That sounds crazy and a waste of energy.
If it's air dried in France then surely it will be pretty dry esp if it's waggoned over here and then stored in a dry wood shed.
 
One of the issues arising from the over-drying, or, at least, overly-fast drying, of oak, is a yellow fungus. This can stain all the way through the board......or at least, far enough through that you can't plane it out. I've had it in air-dried-only oak, which must have been left in the sun in France. Thorogoods have said that they are seeing it more and more, and I've had it a number of times in boards I've bought. Climate change, but also poor management in the sawyer's yard, are to blame.
 
It was not so unusual back then. I've seen quite a few tudor / elizabethan planked tables where the oak (sometimes elm) was clearly riven and the planks were just dimensioned at the ends so they looked the same thickness to casual observation but could differ by half an inch on the underside. Ours is made of three wide planks, but often you would get four. The battens beneath are also hewn and not smoothed - nor are they dead square. Of course, a lot of stuff has not survived.
This is ours, not old (bought in 2006, French Oak I believe), and is 7’ long with 2x2’ extensions. It’s just under 2 3/4’ thick and weighs an absolute ton!

Mid height rail which is wedged tusk tenon jointed.


IMG_6791.jpeg


IMG_6788.jpeg

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IMG_6790.jpeg
 
Nice to see another table top without breadboard ends. My 5' x 2'6" x 1.5" doesn’t have them either and is also so heavy it is not actually fixed to the frame. Battens underneath prevent it from sliding more than 1/2" sideways and gravity prevents movement lengthwise. Unconventional perhaps but has stood the test time. I had neither skills nor knowledge at the time to do any different. My only regret is the width.
 
One of the issues arising from the over-drying, or, at least, overly-fast drying, of oak, is a yellow fungus. This can stain all the way through the board......or at least, far enough through that you can't plane it out. I've had it in air-dried-only oak, which must have been left in the sun in France. Thorogoods have said that they are seeing it more and more, and I've had it a number of times in boards I've bought. Climate change, but also poor management in the sawyer's yard, are to blame.
Yellow staining in oak seems to have become more prevalent in recent years. Gard et al postulated that it is caused by "metabolization of tannic acid by the fungus Paecilomyces variotii." Koch and Skarvelis suggest “The fungus colonises the vessels of the wood reacting with the hydrolysable tannins (lactone derivatives) are likely to be responsible for the yellow discoloration.” Maintaining sufficient air flow of 0.5 metres per second (~1 MPH) and holding relative humidity in the kiln to below 80- 85 percent are suggestions for preventing the problem. Both these sources suggest the chances of this fault developing in air dried wood are small.

Interesting therefore that you're seeing it in air dried material. Slainte.

Gard et al
Koch and Skarvelis
 
I think it should be 'tempora bona', because 'tempora' is singular. :)
(amo, amas, amat, amabus, amatis, amant.)

In the words of Celine Deon, 'It's all coming back to me!'
Turns out you're right. Make your mistakes on paper, as I always tell my clients!
 
I think we're just about there:

Amici boni, cibus bonus, tempora bona
 
My education was sadly lacking (and terrible, cost my father a lot of money down the river) I can only watch you guys with envy, also a whole Life of Brian section unappreciated.
Oh it would so very easy to divert this excellent thread OT.

Are you going to do the carving twice ie on both sides of the rail?
 
'Tempora' is plural; the singular is 'tempus'. The -a ending is often a first declension singular suffix, but in this case it's a third declension plural. Here's the full table.

But Malc is right that it should be 'tempora bona', because the neuter plural form of bonus is bona.
Nice one!!

On that subject, it just me, but does a 'talking head' saying "a criteria" instead of "a criterion" grate with you?

"Funj-aye" instead of "Fung-Ee"...my old Latin master would have had apoplexy. Several times. Noisily.
 
Nice one!!

On that subject, it just me, but does a 'talking head' saying "a criteria" instead of "a criterion" grate with you?

"Funj-aye" instead of "Fung-Ee"...my old Latin master would have had apoplexy. Several times. Noisily.
Don't yer just love a pedants' revolt! 😁
 
Don't yer just love a pedants' revolt! 😁

Malc, me ol' China, I'd far rather be a pedant than a lazy peasant, mangling a perfectly articulate language!😁

May your adverbs always be properly modified (not conjugated) and your neologisms elegant 😇.

Sam, who has used Classical derivations all his working life. Valete!
 
some moisture meters come with a chart for making allowances for the structure of different wood species which can affect the transmission of electrical signals
My old moisture meter came with printed tables for making allowances relative to temperature and timber species:

Table 1.jpgTable 2.jpg
 
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