Radiator help needed

[BigMonka]

You fine woodworking folk seem to know a considerable amount about all things building&houses etc so I thought I'd ask you for some central heating assistance please!
I've got a single pesky radiator that won't get hot! I've cleaned it out so there's not sludge in it, and it re-filled absolutely fine so there's no issue with water getting to it. Today I had a go at balancing all the radiators but I still can't get it hot.
The potentially interesting part is that the radiator is downstairs but appears to be the final radiator on the upstairs central heating loop. Is this normal practice? It could well be that it's never worked and they shouldn't be installed like that?

Any tips or things to investigate would be greatly appreciated please.

p.s. 2020 New Years Eve really is a huge amount of fun right

 

[Pete Maddex]

It should just be case of getting the balance right if you haven't good blockage. Turn all the up stairs radiators off and see if you can get some flow through it.


Pete

 

[BigMonka]

Thanks Pete, I'll give that a go. Is there a specific way of balancing between the upstairs and downstairs as am I right in thinking that they're normally two independent loops connected back at the boiler?

 

[Rod]

Turn off all the other rads to force water through it.
Then play around at balancing

Rod

 

[novocaine]

Whats already been said.
If its got a trv on it take the head off and open the lock sheid valve to full too.

 

[RogerS]

To sum up :
Turn off all other radiators

Remove the TRV if fitted ...check that the plunger in the middle is free to move and is not pressed in

Open the lock shield valve fully

Turn the pump up to maximum speed

If it still doesn't get hot then it is either blocked or you've got old style Hep2O pipe that is totally blocked with black crud and will need replacing.

Or you could try hiring a pressure washer thin gummy and see if you can reverse flush the crud out.

Been there. Done that. Sold the house :lol:

 

[Argus]

Assuming that (in this very cold weather) the heat-loss design is equivalent (at minus whatever it is outside) to the output of your rads. It may be that you system is working flat out because it is designed for, say 0 degrees outside temperature. Here it's approaching minus 3 degrees as I write.

If that's not the case, try a balancing exercise.

The outlet end of the rad (opposite the TRV) will have a fixed valve. This is used for balancing the flow. Pumped water will take the path of least resistance, avoiding the furthest rads if it can.

Use these valves to balance the entire system.

On very big systems you would work on the pressure loss/flow rate through each rad down each index using pressure gauges. On small domestic systems it's more hit and miss - you have to judge by the temperature through the rad. Design wise, and correctly sized, they are rated at a TD (temperature drop) of 10 deg C. on a working system.

Temporarily remove each TRV.

Starting from the nearest rad to the pump, start throttling down each rad exit valve (the balance valve).
Until you get an even flow (judging the temperature drop) through all of them from the nearest to the last on the index. Reinstall the TRVs.

If you still have a problem at the end of the index, and not counting pipe blockages etc., look to your pump rates.

Good luck.

 

[sunnybob]

Putting all the above in a simpler format;
Wait until 20 minutes after you start the heating system up. Check every rad by hand for temperature. Check each side at the top. If a rad has one side hotter than the other then it needs bleeding of air. When you find the hottest rad, turn the valve on that rad half closed (a thermostat valve down 2 numbers as long as that doesnt close it completely) a lock valve turn it down closed and then open it one whole turn).
Keep searching for the hottest rad and turn it down until all rads are the same temp. It will take at least a half hour for temps to adjust, it might take you a couple evenings to get all of them the same temp.
To stop the boiler going into over pressure You MUST leave one rad fully open at all times, usually the one in the master bedroom or ensuite.

 

[RogerS]

Guys...read the OP. You're over-complicating things.

He has one radiator that does not work. Isolate. Eliminate. Diagnose. Fix fault. Then think about rebalancing.

 

[Woodbloke]

He has one radiator that does not work. Isolate. Eliminate. Diagnose. Fix fault. Then think about rebalancing.

Nope. That's why I'm quite happy to have a British Gas Homecare Agreement and let them sort out any issues like this. My central heating system was completely blasted through by them a few years ago and the crud that came out had to be seen to be believed. We've had an agreement with BG for donkey's years and never regretted a penny of it. SWIMBO accounts for the figures in our household sums (and she is a fully qualified, trained accountant) Sorted - Rob

 

[Deejay]

Morning BM

the radiator is downstairs but appears to be the final radiator on the upstairs central heating loop

Could be an airlock.

+1 to what Rod said above.

If that doesn't fix it, come back with a bit more info.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Doug]

He has one radiator that does not work. Isolate. Eliminate. Diagnose. Fix fault. Then think about rebalancing.

Nope. That's why I'm quite happy to have a British Gas Homecare Agreement and let them sort out any issues like this. My central heating system was completely blasted through by them a few years ago and the crud that came out had to be seen to be believed. We've had an agreement with BG for donkey's years and never regretted a penny of it. SWIMBO accounts for the figures in our household sums (and she is a fully qualified, trained accountant) Sorted - Rob

Whilst I understand the reassurance of having a contract & can’t fault anyone who does the irony is that BG use sub contractors who in the case of a couple of colleagues would be cheaper to employ directly than through BG.

As for the OP no one has asked what sort of system he has so some of the suggestions here could be very counter productive depending on what he has.

 

[RogerS]

Morning BM

the radiator is downstairs but appears to be the final radiator on the upstairs central heating loop

Could be an airlock.

+1 to what Rod said above.

If that doesn't fix it, come back with a bit more info.

Cheers

Dave

Good point about an airlock but if it's a really 'good' airlock then the CH pump doesn't have enough pressure to force the water through. In these cases, you need to connect water at mains pressure into the system and backfeed it to force the air out. I have a wee gizmo that 9fingers made up for me many years ago that screws into the bleed valve outlet on the radiator and converts to 15mm thus making it easy to connect a hose-pipe and back feed.

 

[Deejay]

Morning Roger

You're right about the backfilling option, but isolating all but the offending radiator and trying won't do any harm, before the Stilsons come out.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Woodbloke]

... is that BG use sub contractors...

We've had BG vans and operators coming to our various properties for at least twenty years + now; no sight nor sound of a subby or their vans, proper BG only - Rob

 

[TrimTheKing]

... is that BG use sub contractors...

We've had BG vans and operators coming to our various properties for at least twenty years + now; no sight nor sound of a subby or their vans, proper BG only - Rob

A BG engineer a marked up van doth not make. Sky and BT use subbies and part of the contract is their vans are fully liveried. Not that it really matters but I don’t think you can take for granted that a liveried van means they are BG employees.

 

[Woodbloke]

A BG engineer a marked up van doth not make. Sky and BT use subbies and part of the contract is their vans are fully liveried. Not that it really matters but I don’t think you can take for granted that a liveried van means they are BG employees.

Maybe this is what happens, Google doth provide the answer - Rob

'Are British Gas engineers self employed?

British Gas are an excellent company to work for if you enjoy what you do. ... My own description of the jobs is 'you are self employed but paid by british gas. ' You practially work alone as you work from home with your van, tools and communication's for jobs and then british gas pay you to do there work!'

 

[RogerS]

... is that BG use sub contractors...

We've had BG vans and operators coming to our various properties for at least twenty years + now; no sight nor sound of a subby or their vans, proper BG only - Rob

So NOT proper BG engineers then but self-employed

 

[greeno]

... is that BG use sub contractors...

We've had BG vans and operators coming to our various properties for at least twenty years + now; no sight nor sound of a subby or their vans, proper BG only - Rob

They do at peak times. Our friend who is a plumber with his own business does work for them periodically during slack periods. He goes in his own liveried van and clothes.

 

[Rod]

Many years ago we had a service contract with BG
They would carry out the annual service and within a few weeks the boiler packed in. It was repaired but the same thing continued.
After a while they wrote that I could no longer have the service package.
So for a many years we left it alone and it worked fine.

I now use a local man from our village.

Rod

 

[Woodbloke]

Many years ago we had a service contract with BG
They would carry out the annual service and within a few weeks the boiler packed in. It was repaired but the same thing continued.
After a while they wrote that I could no longer have the service package.
So for a many years we left it alone and it worked fine.

Rod

BG will service your boiler 'ad infinitum' until they can no longer obtain parts for it. Our old boiler was installed in the house around 1988 when gas was first laid on in our road and our current house was the first one in't road to have gas installed. BG kept on maintaining it but eventually it gave up the ghost and they said it was time for a new one. Had they been able to get the bits, we would probably still be using it....but, iIrc our gas bills were getting a bit ridiculous as it was very inefficient.

So NOT proper BG engineers then but self-employed

So next time (shortly) we have a BG (supposedly) engineer round in his blue BG van, with his blue BG uniform, big blue BG toolbox and BG paperwork...I'll ask the pertinent question.

''Does you, or does you not....." :eusa-whistle: Watch this space - Rob

 

[RogerS]

Many years ago we had a service contract with BG
They would carry out the annual service and within a few weeks the boiler packed in. It was repaired but the same thing continued.
After a while they wrote that I could no longer have the service package.
So for a many years we left it alone and it worked fine.

Rod

BG will service your boiler 'ad infinitum' until they can no longer obtain parts for it. Our old boiler was installed in the house around 1988 when gas was first laid on in our road and our current house was the first one in't road to have gas installed. BG kept on maintaining it but eventually it gave up the ghost and they said it was time for a new one. Had they been able to get the bits, we would probably still be using it....but, iIrc our gas bills were getting a bit ridiculous as it was very inefficient.

So NOT proper BG engineers then but self-employed

So next time (shortly) we have a BG (supposedly) engineer round in his blue BG van, with his blue BG uniform, big blue BG toolbox and BG paperwork...I'll ask the pertinent question.

''Does you, or does you not....." :eusa-whistle: Watch this space - Rob

No worries, Rob. These self-employed fellas have a wardrobe in their vans and are well sorted in dressing accordingly :lol:

 

[Woodbloke]

No worries, Rob. These self-employed fellas have a wardrobe in their vans and are well sorted in dressing accordingly :lol:

Six of one and half a doz of the other Rog. This...

"British Gas has a workforce of 1,000 who install boilers – 500 are directly employed by the company, with the rest contract workers".

...from a little corner of t'intweb. That was the current situation on the piece I found, but it may be changing, so who knows; we may get the genuine article next time round or a fake :lol: - Rob

 

[RogerS]

Sorry, Rob, but you just keeping digging !

This started when you posted "Proper BG engineers" which implies that they are employed by British Gas. Trim pointed out that this was not in his experience, then you posted evidence to the fact that many were self-employed...

And now you're posting

"Out of 1000, 500 are sub-contracted'.

So admit it...you're banged to rights ...you have a 50:50 chance that your engineer is actually a 'proper BG engineer'' !!

 

[Lons]

Maybe you're just lucky where you live Rob but it isn't the case all over the UK and BG certainly don't have a particularly good reputation. I don't have gas available but if I had they wouldn't be my first choice of supplier or maintenance engineers, the ones maintaining my inlaw's CH on a contract were absolutely useless, and expensive compared to local engineers and to boot the damn company charged them twice every month for the privilege. I had to sort that out and getting through to them was comparable to extracting teeth.

I do have some other inside information btw as my son was a trainer for BG though that was a few years ago so they may have improved, luckily he saw sense and soon moved on to better employers.

As an aside to that, when we did have gas many years ago we made the mistake of buying a cooker from them, one of those "new fangled" types with electric ignition which failed after a few months, it took 4 visits by different BG "engineers" to get it fixed, the first 3 just shook their heads saying we can't do electrics and the forth said the same but had a go at our risk of course :eusa-whistle:

All that said they're probably no worse than many other large companies, I'm still smarting over a massive fall out with Apple over my iphone, an argument that got as far as MD level. :evil:

 

[Doug]

This started when you posted "Proper BG engineers" which implies that they are employed by British Gas.

This was the irony I was relating to, most customers think the engineer is fully employed by BG because they turn up in a sign written van & uniform, I’m not saying they’re in anyway inferior but it is misleading.

 

[BigMonka]

Hi folks, thanks so much for all the suggestions. I've been round and turned the lockshield valves pretty much totally off on all other radiators and that has finally pushed some heat into the problem-child radiator :eusa-dance:
It's certainly not as hot as all the others so I might do a bit more adjusting but most valves are now probably 80% off so I'd rather this one radiator was a bit colder than the others at the sake of the rest of the house actually being warm.

The pump in the combi boiler is already on max speed but is there any guidance on how hot to have the central heating water? There's an adjustment dial with 4 or 5 levels on it - should I be trying not to use the hottest in order to keep the boiler firing less? (It's an oil-fired boiler so anything I can do to keep running costs down is good news!)

 

[novocaine]

65 leaving 45 returning.
Outside this the condenser doesnt work as effectively.

 

[RogerS]

65 leaving 45 returning.
Outside this the condenser doesnt work as effectively.

Spot on...good article here goes into things in a lot more detail

https://www.building.co.uk/how-to-opera ... 40.article

 

[novocaine]

I know. Ive been balancing the new rads this week. Shame i have one more to plumb and I'm out of copper (plastic on the surface doesnt really work for me)

 

[TrimTheKing]

Sorry, Rob, but you just keeping digging !

This started when you posted "Proper BG engineers" which implies that they are employed by British Gas. Trim pointed out that this was not in his experience, then you posted evidence to the fact that many were self-employed...

And now you're posting

"Out of 1000, 500 are sub-contracted'.

So admit it...you're banged to rights ...you have a 50:50 chance that your engineer is actually a 'proper BG engineer'' !!

Just to be clear, BG definitely do have their own engineers because my cousin is one. PAYE employee of BG and that’s who he did his training with, so it’s very possible Rob’s engineer is BG. Like Doug I simply wanted to show that the van and uniform alone don’t guarantee it due to the use of ‘contractors’ same as Sky.

I also know that the BG subbies are held to very stringent quality levels because my cousin is in charge of the Sheffield/Yorkshire area team and has told me of spot checks he does and people he’s binned off for shoddy work.

 

[Deejay]

Hi folks, thanks so much for all the suggestions. I've been round and turned the lockshield valves pretty much totally off on all other radiators and that has finally pushed some heat into the problem-child radiator :eusa-dance:
It's certainly not as hot as all the others so I might do a bit more adjusting but most valves are now probably 80% off so I'd rather this one radiator was a bit colder than the others at the sake of the rest of the house actually being warm.

The pump in the combi boiler is already on max speed but is there any guidance on how hot to have the central heating water? There's an adjustment dial with 4 or 5 levels on it - should I be trying not to use the hottest in order to keep the boiler firing less? (It's an oil-fired boiler so anything I can do to keep running costs down is good news!)

Afternoon BM

Have you bled the offending rad again?

Also, you say it sits at the end of the upstairs circuit. It's worth re-bleeding the last upstairs rad in case air from downstairs has collected there.

These things often take a while (DAMHIKT)

Cheers

Dave

EDIT spilechucker thinks there is only one e in bleeding

 

[Woodbloke]

Sorry, Rob, but you just keeping digging !

This started when you posted "Proper BG engineers" which implies that they are employed by British Gas. Trim pointed out that this was not in his experience, then you posted evidence to the fact that many were self-employed...

And now you're posting

"Out of 1000, 500 are sub-contracted'.

So admit it...you're banged to rights ...you have a 50:50 chance that your engineer is actually a 'proper BG engineer'' !!

Sorry Rog, sometimes is simply ain't worth carrying on with your 'discussions' so in this particular instance, I won't.

Just to be clear, BG definitely do have their own engineers because my cousin is one. PAYE employee of BG and that’s who he did his training with, so it’s very possible Rob’s engineer is BG. Like Doug I simply wanted to show that the van and uniform alone don’t guarantee it due to the use of ‘contractors’ same as Sky.

I also know that the BG subbies are held to very stringent quality levels because my cousin is in charge of the Sheffield/Yorkshire area team and has told me of spot checks he does and people he’s binned off for shoddy work.

Thank you very much indeed Mark. Appreciated - Rob

 

[Lurker]

Except....... they are not engineers but technicians.

Proper engineers have CEng.
Pity we are not like Germany in this respect, maybe then we would have a decent industrial base.

 

[Lurker]

My tame plumber reckons the only training they get is to find a way to condemn the boiler, shut off your gas supply and sell you a new system at 200% of a decent price.
He is not normally prone to exaggeration

 

[sunnybob]

Tame plumbers always know that EVERYBODY other than themselves are idiots.
They always also know that the boiler THEY fit is the only one in the world thats any good. :lol: :lol:

 

[9fingers]

My tame plumber reckons the only training they get is to find a way to condemn the boiler, shut off your gas supply and sell you a new system at 200% of a decent price.
He is not normally prone to exaggeration

That aligns with experience of a close family member and a friend. Left them both cold with gas cut off and put the fear of God into them. This was a few years ago so thye might have improved but they used to operate as a job creation scheme.
As a landlord, I have a tame gas guru who will do a full safety check and flue measurements for £40 so I do my own servicing and get him in to check it over when I'm done.

Bob