Spindle moulder guide ring (?) help

[RogerS]

In this video, he uses a guide ring (I think) and a template for moulding as much as possible the outside of the spiral volute.
[youtubessl]mOTHhVjVYBw[/youtubessl]

I'd like to do the same but have no experience of guide rings or ring fences. My block is this one (together with cutter)





But I can't find a guide ring large enough (I reckon it needs to be 160mm diameter).

Any advice/suggestions very welcome.

 

[9fingers]

Ring guides are easy enough to make from a bit of scrap ply a smidge thinner than your template.
A few layers of masking tape or similar on the template will allow you to take a finishing cut so remove any burns after the main shape has been established by removing the tape.
Good work holding as with all spindle work is important. Count fingers before and after!

Good Luck
Bob

 

[RogerS]

Ring guides are easy enough to make from a bit of scrap ply a smidge thinner than your template.
A few layers of masking tape or similar on the template will allow you to take a finishing cut so remove any burns after the main shape has been established by removing the tape.
Good work holding as with all spindle work is important. Count fingers before and after!

Good Luck
Bob

I just get a mind block, Bob. What does the 'scrap ply' fit onto ?

 

[9fingers]

Ring guides are easy enough to make from a bit of scrap ply a smidge thinner than your template.
A few layers of masking tape or similar on the template will allow you to take a finishing cut so remove any burns after the main shape has been established by removing the tape.
Good work holding as with all spindle work is important. Count fingers before and after!

Good Luck
Bob

I just get a mind block, Bob. What does the 'scrap ply' fit onto ?

Whatever your machine has to mount ring guides on. Should be something behind the block maybe built into the shaw guard if you have one of those.
If all else fails take everything off the table and fit a 18/25mm mdf sub table and screw the ring guide to that.

Bob

 

[RogerS]

:idea:

Thanks, Bob.

 

[Trevanion]

In this video, he uses a guide ring (I think) and a template for moulding as much as possible the outside of the spiral volute.

I'd like to do the same but have no experience of guide rings or ring fences. My block is this one (together with cutter)

What he's using there is a pair of slotted collars with an integral bearing in the bottom collar or perhaps even just bearing the template off the collar itself without an integral bearing, a very archaic bit of equipment but it works and was the preferred option for this kind of work owing to its relatively small cutting circle compared to the large square cutter blocks of the time.

The size of bearing isn't actually that important so long as it is the same or smaller diameter than the deepest part of your knives cutting circle, you could simply just use a regular 30mm bore bearing from a bearing supplier such as a 6206 bearing, what is critical is that the sizing of your plywood template is correct relative to the bearing offset to the deepest part of the cutter.

Does your machine have a ring fence at all? You could do most of it with one of those, or if all else fails go with Bob's suggestion of bolting a bit of plywood to your bed and using that to bear against, just like our favorite Vietnamese woodworkers below at 5:50 onwards:

[youtubessl]Xsru5MV-41w[/youtubessl]

 

[RogerS]

Thanks, Dan. No ring fence. I'll have a go along the lines of Bob's suggestions. Need to get some 10mm bolts first ! I'll probably use dust extraction, though !

 

[Trevanion]

Does your spindle have a reversing function, Roger? You may find that moulding that tight of a curve will present serious tear-out with potentially explosive consequences when cutting against the grain and that would be last thing you want when moulding the Walnut! By doing all the cutting with the grain with regular rotation up until the point where it begins cutting against the grain, then flip your tooling and workpiece upside down and reverse the spindle rotation to cut with the grain where you haven't already moulded it, this will result in perfect results with very little sanding.

 

[9fingers]

How are you getting on with this ring fence need Roger?

I have need for a spindle guide for a job and kicking ideas around myself.
Pleasantly surprised to see how cheap 30mm bore ball races can be.
Tempted to press them into mdf discs for differing diameters to act as guides.

bearing types - all 30mm bore
6706-2rs 4mm thick
16006-2rs 9mm thick
6006-2rs 12mm thick
6206-2rs 15mm thick
All cheap as chips chinese types but for our hobby use who needs SKF C3 quality and prices

Bob

 

[RogerS]

Does your spindle have a reversing function, Roger? You may find that moulding that tight of a curve will present serious tear-out with potentially explosive consequences when cutting against the grain and that would be last thing you want when moulding the Walnut! By doing all the cutting with the grain with regular rotation up until the point where it begins cutting against the grain, then flip your tooling and workpiece upside down and reverse the spindle rotation to cut with the grain where you haven't already moulded it, this will result in perfect results with very little sanding.

Yes I do. Only one problem that I can see - fixing the workpiece upside down. Screw holes visible afterwards in the top.

 

[RogerS]

How are you getting on with this ring fence need Roger?

.....
Bob

On hold, Bob.

 

[Trevanion]

Yes I do. Only one problem that I can see - fixing the workpiece upside down. Screw holes visible afterwards in the top.

Ah, that is a problem now that I think about it, with a conventional ring fence or bearing you simply just move the ring/bearing to be above the cutter and flip the volute and template upside down. Alternatively, you can do the same for the majority of the convex curve by working off a straight fence with the template, a la Roy Sutton at about 33:56 into the video:

[youtubessl]IwdJsT8Sdwc[/youtubessl]

 

[RogerS]

Hoping that with taking very, very light cuts ....

 

[RogerS]

So ...building on Bob's suggestion, some ply bolted to the table. Decided to put some slots in to allow me to make gradual cuts. I have the option to fit at the rear of this ply a bearer bolted to the table and to fit spacers between ply and bearer to act as a backup stop in case vibration etc makes the ply bolts work loose.


Then I reduced the height of the ply to just below my template thickness ('cos that's what Eric Stephenson says'.)



That is going to be spinning very fast soon

Offering up template and ply tells me that they need cutting if I'm going to be able to swing the template while making the cut



Now on p 143 of Stephenson's book he says in the ring fence section

"....with an operating point furthest from the support perhaps 5mm wide...."

Now, as we shall see in a moment, I misunderstood this but not sure of the remedy.


Offering up the template told me that that too needed shaping. So using some quality cardboard as a template, I played around with the shape, swinging it past the operating point as if I were making the cut for real.

and that told me that my hands would be a bit too close for my liking. So I Domino'd some extension pieces to keep my hands out of harms way.
\

Downside is that they overhang my sliding table and so makes it too easy to tip the template with disastrius results. So...that needs some attention.

Getting there but it's not as easy as it looks.

Template nicely trimmed with good lead-in.


But the trailing cut needs further work but the available bolt holes in the spindle table top limits the minimum size of the ply.


which means cutting more off the template.

And it was at this point that I realised I'd misunderstood Stephenson because although the operating point lines up nicely underneath the cutline of the cutter



..if I swing it round too far then the cutter is going to take far too much off...because I've cut too much away from my ply


:eusa-think: :eusa-think:

 

[Trevanion]

Yes, that’s wrong. The narrowest point between the centre of rotation and the “ring” should be at the very front with it widening out at each side. I suspect as you can’t get the clearance with the bolts where they are you’ll need to bolt a complete false table from MDF to the take and then screw your “ring” to that to get the clearance.

 

[RogerS]

Is this what you had in mind, Dan ?


And modified template


Handholds are going to be a problem because it changes angles an awful lot as the template is passed over the cutters. Thinking of doing a dry run with a bit of softwood.

Ditto protection.

I know a lot of you are thinking "If it was me, I'd have got the chisels and sandpaper out and it would have been done by now." You might have a point.

 

[Trevanion]

Is this what you had in mind, Dan ?

Yes that's more like it, although I did see your "could you sketch it for me" request and I thought I would take practical pictures rather than sketch, I'll post them anyway for reaffirmation.

Handholds are going to be a problem because it changes angles an awful lot as the template is passed over the cutters. Thinking of doing a dry run with a bit of softwood.

Ditto protection.

I know a lot of you are thinking "If it was me, I'd have got the chisels and sandpaper out and it would have been done by now." You might have a point.

It's all learning Roger, you might be quicker with chisels and sandpaper for a one-off but then you wouldn't learn how to do curved moulding on the spindle moulder that way. I'd agree that a trial run in softwood would be a good idea and I think several light passes would be a good idea too, turn your bolt holes into slots and just do a couple of millimetres off each pass and re-position the template each time.

 

[Steve Maskery]

This thread reminds me of why I use my router table rather than my spindle moulder.
I have a Scheppach SM which has cut a few dozen metres of moulding. I've not used it for 15 years. If anyone is inspired to get a SM, give me a shout, I'd rather have the space that it occupies.
S

 

[Trevanion]

This thread reminds me of why I use my router table rather than my spindle moulder.
I have a Scheppach SM which has cut a few dozen metres of moulding. I've not used it for 15 years. If anyone is inspired to get a SM, give me a shout, I'd rather have the space that it occupies.
S

I'm the opposite Steve, but it all depends on what you're working on and what you're comfortable with. I honestly feel less safe using a router table than I do the spindle moulder even though the SM should be the bigger and scarier machine, but I have hundreds of hours clocked up standing in front of a spindle moulder doing all kinds of work whereas I have very few with a router table.

 

[RogerS]

Thanks Dan for the feedback. Bolt holes slotted in the Mk 1 and so that design feature carried through.

 

[Doug71]

I'm sure Trevanion will answer this Roger but I just wondered if there would be any benefit in getting some limiters to match those cutters?

Maybe less chance of kickback or snatching the work piece, it does looks a delicate operation?

I could be wrong as the ring should limit the amount of bite that can be taken but I tend to use them when possible, it just feels safer somehow even when your fingers are nowhere near.

 

[Cabinetman]

I'm sure Trevanion will answer this Roger but I just wondered if there would be any benefit in getting some limiters to match those cutters?

Maybe less chance of kickback or snatching the work piece, it does looks a delicate operation?

I could be wrong as the ring should limit the amount of bite that can be taken but I tend to use them when possible, it just feels safer somehow even when your fingers are nowhere near.

I hadn’t noticed that there weren’t any limiters, I’ve never ever used a spindle moulder without them, every time I order cutters the limiters are supplied automatically.
Perhaps I don’t know what I’m missing without them - fingers? Ian

 

[Trevanion]

I think it goes without saying, in an ideal world you should have the limiters installed as it's a necessary safety feature, but I know exactly why Roger has gone without them... cost :lol:

I think a set of custom profiled limiters is about £40 a pair or even more from Whitehill now.

So long as Roger keeps his hands well away from the unlimited cutters (with limiters you would have nasty cuts, a cutter of this size unlimited has the potential to amputate most of a hand in a split second) with his template jig with proper handholds, and takes small passes advancing a couple of millimetres each time he should be fine. I personally think the biggest risk would be an accidental climb cut that turns into a severe kickback, it can be quite easy to not take enough off one section of a curved moulding if you're working on the centre of the ring perfectly and if you handle the workpiece sloppily you can cause this under-moulded section to catch and kickback.

 

[RogerS]

Dan's pretty much hit it on the head. For a one-off like this, limiters are a bit of a luxury especially given the 'situation'. Climb-cutting is also my greatest fear especially as the template and workpiece has to be swivelled past the cutterblock. I'm actually starting to bottle out.

EDIT: Is that video in the OP working properly for you guys ? Not here.

 

[AndyP]

Is that video in the OP working properly for you guys ? Not here.

Works fine here Roger

 

[Trevanion]

Dan's pretty much hit it on the head. For a one-off like this, limiters are a bit of a luxury especially given the 'situation'. Climb-cutting is also my greatest fear especially as the template and workpiece has to be swivelled past the cutterblock. I'm actually starting to bottle out.

There's no reason to get scared Roger, so long as you do as I say by taking light cuts and keeping your hands well away (while also maintaining proper control of the template, you don't want to be swinging it about 4ft away :lol there isn't much to go wrong.

Watch this fella:

[youtubessl]yea9VsRd8hU[/youtubessl]

While he does have limiters, he is exercising good practice also by taking multiple light cuts and well designed jigs that give him complete control over the workpieces, the only improvement would be a bonnet guard.

 

[RogerS]

Nice video, Dan. Like the square blocks for extra support for the handles. So naturally had to go out and glue up a couple. But that meant that I couldn't do the trial run yesterday.

So this morning, I was all set to do a dry run. But then remembered that I'd noticed that my SCMS was kicking back towards the end of the cut. On investigation found one of the side benches had drooped. So that needed sorting. But before that, decided the floor needed a good sweep. And the vacuum bins needing emptying as I'm away to the tip tomorrow. Then SWMBO asked me for some mini-muscle power in the garden. My bench needed a bit of a tidy up as well.

Then I remembered that I needed to rip up some long sticks for the fire and by then it was time for a mug of mint tea. It'll be lunchtime soon and since we usually have a glass or two on a Sunday lunchtime, too risky to do it this afternoon. So maybe tomorrow.

After I've been to the tip.

 

[Malc2098]

Procrastination is the thief of time!

 

[RogerS]

No excuses left. Time to practice.

I've added some meaty handles and a barrier bar.


Behind the 'ring fence' you can see my set-up for gradually increasing the depth of cut ..1mm at a time. Just change the plastic spacers.



First pass


and more


and finally


What it did highlight was the accuracy needed for the initial cut with the bandsaw and also that the template needed a lot more cutting back to finish the curve off - much as Dan intimated.



I really could do with a little bit more but that's the best I can do. Still better too little than too much

 

[Trevanion]

Pretty good first attempt! :eusa-clap:

And we can still count to ten without having to take our socks off! :eusa-dance:

 

[Malc2098]

Pretty good first attempt! :eusa-clap:

And we can still count to ten without having to take our socks off! :eusa-dance:

…and count to 21 with no clothes on!!

 

[Trevanion]

…and count to 21 with no clothes on!!

:eusa-naughty:

 

[AJB Temple]

Looks like a good start Roger. I still find spindles a bit scary.

 

[RogerS]

And here's the volute. Just a bit of sanding and a lot of carving elsewhere. Thinking about making up another template to carry on extending the curve round as far as I can go to minimise the carving work.

 

[Trevanion]

Good work Roger! The cut surface looks very good even when going against the grain. If you feel comfortable to make another template and finish off the other side I'd say go for it, it'll save on trying to carve a decent portion of it.

 

[Malc2098]

Nice.

 

[NickM]

That looks very good (and no blood stains anywhere to be seen…).

 

[Cabinetman]

Well done, and a pretty good finish too.

 

[RogerS]

Thanks, chaps

 

[TrimTheKing]

Looks good mate, and a great learning process too.