The imperial and metric thing.

[Andy Kev.]

For the mods: this may be considered skating a bit close to politics, so feel free to bin it if you think it out of order.

You're all by now no doubt aware that imperial measures may be coming in out of the cold. For most woodworkers, I doubt if this will prove a problem.

As it happens, I tend to prefer imperial when I work as the inch is, in my subjective view, long enough to be a useful starting measurement and of course it is readily halved, quartered and chopped into eighths. Plus I love those old two foot, four fold Rabone rulers.

Meanwhile in the outside world, there are an awful lot of people getting very hot under the collar about this and predicting that it will lead to Armageddon or similar. I can't get worked up about it but I think that I like the idea of being able to buy a pound of this or that. And I've got no objection decitwattolitres existing alongside that.

 

[johnward]

I don't suppose the younger ones among us are very interested in using Imperial. But personally, as an OAP, I only use Metric for all measuring but often use Imperial in general discussion eg 6x1 a 4x2.

John

 

[StevieB]

Not sure it is going to happen as the papers predict, and we already use some imperial units anyway - miles for example, I still weight myself in stones and my ruler and tape measure have inches and cm on already. It is not as if we are going to go back to only imperial measurements, and I use both when it suits - presume I am not the only one why looks for 2.4m of 2" x 4"?

 

[novocaine]

Another pointless PR stunt. It makes no difference what so ever other than to get the middle aged and above all riled up for the sake of "optics". Bit like changing the passport colour really.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Another pointless PR stunt. It makes no difference what so ever other than to get the middle aged and above all riled up for the sake of "optics". Bit like changing the passport colour really.

I'm far more relaxed about it. I've got no problem with extending freedom of choice. As far as I understand, nobody is going to be required to use imperial. It is rather that the option will be there if you want it. Some people have reacted rather strongly against it but I can't for the life of me see why. We probably all ought to stay relaxed and just remember that it's there if you want it.

 

[Trevanion]

We never really got away from Imperial anyway, it's always lingered around.

8' x 4' sheet of 12mm OSB :lol:

 

[Alder]

A lot of the timber I buy, mostly from Jewson I order as a metric length and then add 6 x3 or 4x2. Etc.
Russell

 

[TrimTheKing]

Dave’s right, massive PR exercise to (and I’m going to skate on even thinner ice and break our own rules here) distract from partygate and the ongoing and consistent lying to us by our politicians (of all parties I might add, just for purposes of equality). Imperial measurements have never gone away, I bought a quarter of aniseed twist from a sweet shop only 3 weeks ago.

It’s nonsense peddled by the government and media and controlled by Murdoch to distract from far more important things.

There, I’ve gone there, I’ll prepare to be thrown out!

 

[Trevanion]

There, I’ve gone there, I’ll prepare to be thrown out!

 

[Andy Kev.]

But ... if we all take the distraction thing as read (and that is the political bit), the point I'm making is that I can't see it doing any harm.

Can anybody see any realistic objection to a trader selling veg by the pound if he wants to and his customers like it? I think that that question stands quite independently of why the politicians might have raised the matter.

 

[AJB Temple]

I don't really care.

However, be careful what you wish for. My wife has recently started a new role where she is running, aot, some warehouses. They import and sell a lot of commercial food kit used by restaurants, pubs and fast food franchises. As a result of Brexit the old CE labelling was changed to UKCA. This has been cited as a direct cause of price increases by some quite high profile suppliers in, for example, Germany and Italy. The product certification paperwork they must do is now different to the EU paperwork and that has a cost. The civil servants just love this stuff, but it is us mere mortals that end up paying for it.

Where I think we might see confusion and misuse is in the drinks industry. There are a lot of metric glasses about.

 

[Mike G]

I happily jump backwards and forwards between metric and imperial, as I am sure most people between 50 and 70 probably do, but I work in millimetres, and that won't change. Same in the workshop and DIY. When I've got to work out the spacings for studs in a piece of oak framing dividing 7'-10 3/8" by 7 is a bit more of a schlep than 2397 divided by 7. The milkman delivered 3 pints this morning, but we'll use it in millilitres when making a fruit loaf. It's a 28 mile drive to my mother's house, but the car will use X litres in getting us there, consuming the go-go juice at around 55mpg. I'm 5'-10 tall and weigh 78kg (yeah, I know. That'll be 74 very soon!!).

It's a mess. A ridiculous mess, but it's what this generation is used to. Youngsters do it much more sensibly. This decision is emotional rather than practical, but emotions are what tend to drive most people's choices anyway.

The Americans crashed a Mars lander onto Mars some years ago because of a cock up between metric and imperial with one of their suppliers. I doubt that being able to buy ham by the pound is going to be quite so consequential.

 

[AndyT]

I expect that the real scope of the new regulations will be much narrower than some of the press headlines and general speculation. Probably just fruit, veg, fish and meat sold loose.
So market stalls for fruit and veg, plus fishmongers and butchers.

I can't see it affecting the vast majority of sales, in supermarkets.

Across the world most countries retain an informal unit for a handful of fruit or veg - three or four apples or potatoes. Even in France I have asked for "une livre" of something and been understood. The fact that it means 500g not 454g or some other number is irrelevant. The vendor weighs whole fruit and lets the scales do the calculations.

 

[Mike Jordan]

The imperial system will never disappear since the Americans won’t be changing I’m sure. I also use the two systems at the same time but still think in feet and inches. One great advantage of using millimetres is the ease of calculating the rise and travel of a staircase, measure in millimetres and use a calculator!

 

[Andy Kev.]

I happily jump backwards and forwards between metric and imperial, as I am sure most people between 50 and 70 probably do, but I work in millimetres, and that won't change. Same in the workshop and DIY. When I've got to work out the spacings for studs in a piece of oak framing dividing 7'-10 3/8" by 7 is a bit more of a schlep than 2397 divided by 7.

You're right about the relative ease of dividing mm or cm. However, one idea that I got from Christopher Schwarz's writing is that if you use dividers, you don't have to think of any measurements at all in that connection. That said, they probably don't make dividers big enough for dealing with nigh on 8' long bits of wood but they are certainly the tool to use for e.g. spacing out dovetails. In fact I can honestly say that it would never occur to me to measure dovetails in terms of numerical measurements of any sort. It's just too difficult and too inaccurate although over a certain size that probably doesn't apply.

I think that when you get below 6" - 8" that imperial comes into its own and for me at least there's no alternative when working below 1". That's because the notion of halving, quartering etc. is so instinctive.

 

[Mike G]

Did anyone watch Steve in Acorn to Arabella trying to set out his plank widths at each station, in inches? It was hilarious. They made such an almighty meal of something that would have taken seconds in millimetres. It's not the only reason his planking is such a mess, but it contributed.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUiPJF_jNEA

It's a bit longer than it need be but it covers the ground for measurement-free dovetails.

 

[TrimTheKing]

But ... if we all take the distraction thing as read (and that is the political bit), the point I'm making is that I can't see it doing any harm.

Can anybody see any realistic objection to a trader selling veg by the pound if he wants to and his customers like it? I think that that question stands quite independently of why the politicians might have raised the matter.

My point is it’s never gone away! My local butcher and greengrocer both list prices/weight in both options so for me this truly is a nothing discussion point.

I accept that maybe in other areas that isn’t the case but the reason I think it’s purely pander to the older generation (and rabid Nationalists) who need something to latch onto. No offence intended to anyone here as I don’t count any of you in that description.

As has been mentioned, anyone around 65 and younger has always worked fine in both and I’d guess most couldn’t give a monkeys either way, which is why I think it’s nothing more than pandering to a vocal minority and media nonsense.

Regarding whether it will do any harm, no absolutely not, I just think it’s a complete waste of everybody’s time and resources given how many people give a crap.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Centimetres are the work of the devil. By the bye.
I took A levels in 1972, and at that time we had the choice of metric or imperial papers. I chose imperial and got metric, not that it made much difference, we were all used to working in both. I prefer working in metric below about 2" and imperial for anything larger as I cannot estimate in metric to save my soul - everything goes through my mind in imperial and gets worked back into metric.
I found an exercise book from when I was nine or ten years old - it had sums in hundredweights, stones, pounds and ounces; pounds, shillings, pence and farthings; miles, furlongs, chains, yards and feet; gallons, quarts, pints and gills; gallons, bushels and pecks.

 

[droogs]

Currently only 2 countries in the world use Imperial units of measure officially, USA and DPRK. If the UK is to be global then our customers will want metric items. In the majority of cases brits under 50 will have no idea about using and working with Imperial measurements unless they are machinists that work for an American owned company or builders (who have carried on using Imperial terminology for metric supplies). Everyone else basiclly uses g, Kg, mm and m. The youngsters in shops that sell loose goods by weight will also have no idea what a 1/4 of breaded ham is when measuring out by eye. It is just deflection to appease the more backward thinking members of his party by Johnson.
Regarding it making no difference Mike G mentioned NASA's experience and it has happened a couple of times. SWMBO has a cousin who is a professor of chemical physics and engineering, basically a real rocket scientist who works at NASA. They had a joint project with the ESA where the rocket was built in 2 halves and yes when they tried to put it together it wouldn't match. Each half had been made exaclty to spec, one on imperial machines using imperial units and the other though using imperial units (as it was for a project with American) but on metric machines and low and behold there was enough of a critical difference in the metric machines to make it impossible for the parts to seat correctly and safely. They only found this out when they tried to put it together, she said is cost $130mlln to correct.

Imperial measurements for the most part are best consigned to history and left to being used as colloquialisms just like Leagues, Talents, Cubits and Deal.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Regarding whether it will do any harm, no absolutely not, I just think it’s a complete waste of everybody’s time and resources given how many people give a crap.

I've seen the point of waste of time made a few times in the internet but I just can't see how anybody's time will be wasted. To me, it just extends freedom of choice a bit. Those businesses which will think that introducing a bit of imperial will be good for business will give it a go and those which don't won't.

I've been very surprised at the vigour with which some people have reacted against this, as it all seems so harmless to me and my purely subjective take is that it has the potential to bring a bit of local colour back.

 

[sunnybob]

There is no justification in reviving an obsolete system, except to confuse the customers when spending their money.

Its a commercially driven method of making the average person unable to work out the true cost of anything .

When UK money got decimalised, many shopkeepers insisted in pricing in L.S.D., for that very reason.
I've now lived in a decimal country for more than a dozen years. All measuring is simple. (although, to be completely honest, woodyards fully understand 2" x 4")

 

[AndyP]

Its a commercially driven method of making the average person unable to work out the true cost of anything .

I was thinking the same thing and you have summed it up nicely. A few unscrupulous traders will add a few pence here and there to convert from metric to imperial just like they did last time.

It would be nice to go back to pounds shilling and pence though as my kids still look at me quizzically when I talk in bobs

 

[Andy Kev.]

But how thick would one have to be to be confused?

It's not as if people can't readily do e.g. weight conversions in their phones.

And have you seen any evidence to suggest that it is commercially driven. I'm not aware that any businesses have been lobbying. I saw something in the Daily Telegraph yesterday which said that a survey said that 60% of people would not object to things being available in imperial.

 

[Woodster]

I can’t say I’m bothered (yet) an 8’ x 4’ sheet of ply will stay the same as it always has. Same with the pint and the mile. I use metric 99% of the time but using inches in arbitrary flat work is often very much easier at times. I’ve only ever bought metric rules but I wouldn’t consider anything other than a standard tape measure with both units on it!

 

[TrimTheKing]

Regarding whether it will do any harm, no absolutely not, I just think it’s a complete waste of everybody’s time and resources given how many people give a crap.

I've seen the point of waste of time made a few times in the internet but I just can't see how anybody's time will be wasted. To me, it just extends freedom of choice a bit. Those businesses which will think that introducing a bit of imperial will be good for business will give it a go and those which don't won't.

I've been very surprised at the vigour with which some people have reacted against this, as it all seems so harmless to me and my purely subjective take is that it has the potential to bring a bit of local colour back.

I'm not sure if you're deliberately ignoring my previous point or just not read it, I'll assume the latter because I'm not intending this to be confrontational.

Re 'waste of time', civil servants are spending time and MY tax money (because that's what pays their wages et the end of the day) writing up legislation and papers around this, this 'thing' that a miniscule percentage of the country want or even give a monkeys about. That's my point on waste of time.

(Here's where I get political and will bow out after this...) If we want to allow people to do it then just say "Hey, guess what everyone, now we're free of the tyranny that is the EU, who imposed all these new fangled 'rules' on us (they didn't, we all know they didn't, but let's keep up the myth perpetuated by Murdoch, Rothschild and the other elite who want to control our collective mind) you can now advertise/buy in whatever measurement you so prefer!"

There, done! Doesn't need any more faff than that, but I can assure you that a close friend of mine who works in the Home Office tells me that a LOT of resource is being diverted (there's that word again...) onto this because it's a massive soundbite for the Government and is a definite distraction ploy.

I don't disagree with you that it creates freedom of choice, and the fact it's happening I am not bothered about, it's the fact that (here's the bit I'll repeat) to my view... IT'S NEVER GONE AWAY! The 'standard' is metric but nobody to my knowledge has ever been ordered to stop using imperial (they can show both) but that metric is the standard so must be shown.

As I said, I went into a sweet shop not long ago and bought a quarter of sweets, and explained to the kids what a 'quarter' was. That is why I say it's a waste of time and resources, because they're 'bringing back' something that to my knowledge has never been taken away, and using national resources to then make a song and dance about it.

 

[sunnybob]

But how thick would one have to be to be confused?

It's not as if people can't readily do e.g. weight conversions in their phones.

And have you seen any evidence to suggest that it is commercially driven. I'm not aware that any businesses have been lobbying. I saw something in the Daily Telegraph yesterday which said that a survey said that 60% of people would not object to things being available in imperial.

Do you realise, that statistically, more than 80% of the population have below average I.Q. ?
That means 80% of your 60% survey didnt know what the hell they were being asked.

And considering that your government was elected by a below average I'Q. majority, do you wonder what youve ended up with? :lol:

8 out 10 shoppers wont be able to, or wont be bothered to, compare prices using two completely different incompatible measuring systems (they'll be too busy taking selfies with the "old" signs in the background to work out how to use the calculator function :eusa-doh: ).

I was 19 when Britain went decimal, I can remember all those calculations you had to make to work out what was in your piggy bank. 5 quid in pennies needed a wheel barrow to carry it around. I have fond memories, but no, I DO NOT want to revert, thank you very much.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Haha, I think that 'statistically' your statistics are probably bowlocks there Bob! :lol: But I understand your point.

 

[sunnybob]

I have that statistic on the highest possible authority. It was used in a Guinness advert about 40 years ago. :eusa-whistle: :eusa-whistle:

The same set of adverts that told that 83% of statistics were made up. :lol:

 

[TrimTheKing]

:lol: :eusa-clap:

 

[novocaine]

Mean, mode, median.

I once had a Nodnol Cab driver tell me "Yer, but you can prove anything with statistics". I guess he's right, if you read them how you want.

 

[sunnybob]

In a survey of cab drivers, 93% thought one way streets were the devils work. of the 3/4 that didnt, almost 2/3rds thought the moon was made of cheese, and a ratio of 2 :10 disagreed.
ask the average shopper to work that out at the till. :eusa-whistle:

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... because they're 'bringing back' something that to my knowledge has never been taken away ...

But it was taken away, wasn't it? People were prosecuted for selling stuff in pounds.

 

[TrimTheKing]

... because they're 'bringing back' something that to my knowledge has never been taken away ...

But it was taken away, wasn't it? People were prosecuted for selling stuff in pounds.

According to the Daily Fail, in reality history shows only a couple of people who refused to put the metric were told off. They were never told they couldn't sell in pounds, only that it couldn't ONLY be in pounds, that's the difference.

 

[Lurker]

Her majesty is good enough at maths to work out dosage of potentially fatal prescription drugs.
But when shopping always picks the large sized product assuming it’s cheaper.
Yet if you read the small print “price per kg or whatever” the small version is often cheaper.
But can I convince her?

 

[AndyP]

Her majesty is good enough at maths to work out dosage of potentially fatal prescription drugs.
But when shopping always picks the large sized product assuming it’s cheaper.
Yet if you read the small print “price per kg or whatever” the small version is often cheaper.
But can I convince her?

Does she also use the argument that the larger sized product uses less packaging so is better for the environment?

 

[Lurker]

Her majesty is good enough at maths to work out dosage of potentially fatal prescription drugs.
But when shopping always picks the large sized product assuming it’s cheaper.
Yet if you read the small print “price per kg or whatever” the small version is often cheaper.
But can I convince her?

Does she also use the argument that the larger sized product uses less packaging so is better for the environment?

She doesn’t give a monkeys.
I am the recycler in this household

 

[novocaine]

the law (consumer protection) says that all trade scales must use a standard unit of measure, be certified for use and regulary calibrated. our standard is metric, has been for quite a long time now.

the 2001 case that everybody keeps banging on about wasn't that he was selling in imperial, it was that he wasn't using a suitably certified and tested weigh scale (in only measured in imperial, but that wasn't the reason for the prosocution, it was down to it being untested and thus, potentially unfair to the consumer).

2007 the EU agreed to continue with the suplimented approach to displaying units of measure although it was intended to be phased out from 2000 to 2009.

no, it hasn't ever gone away and no it hasn't ever been taken away by those terrible folks over the ENGLISH CHANNEL.

but ha, look, it's done what it needed to, nobody is talking about the bullshit being spouted from behind the black door anymore. bscene-drinkingcheers:

 

[Andy Kev.]

... because they're 'bringing back' something that to my knowledge has never been taken away ...

But it was taken away, wasn't it? People were prosecuted for selling stuff in pounds.

According to the Daily Fail, in reality history shows only a couple of people who refused to put the metric were told off. They were never told they couldn't sell in pounds, only that it couldn't ONLY be in pounds, that's the difference.

Have you done the advanced course of Rewriting History at the J Stalin Poly? I seem to remember hefty fines. They didn’t earn the nickname of “metric martyrs” for nothing. I could be wrong about fines but there were certainly prosecutions.

 

[Tiresias]

Just some random chuntering whilst I’m waiting for a contractor to turn up. I don’t think I have shared these exciting reminiscences before. If I have, my apologies.

I started out in mm (chartered engineer), then went to metres (chartered surveyor – but not a BS or QS. I don’t want that much bleakness in my life), but in the latter we had to convert everything back to imperial, because the poor ducks that were my clients couldn’t grasp metric. Rent per sq ft, fine. Rent per sq m, head explodes.

Mind you, I’m with them on acres vs. hectares. Nobody knows how big a hectare is. And it is not a very satisfactory multiple of 10 either. And those few properties that are valued on a volumetric basis, cubic metres or cubic feet? Who on earth knows – in property terms anyway, woodworkers would have some idea but not on the scale of some of the cold stores I’ve done.

When I first started working the partnership still had a bag of chains. Weighed a ton (or tonne). Only used for spoofing new graduate surveyors.

And finally one of my fellow surveyors picked up an old file. The measurements didn’t make sense. Nothing checked out – the survey notes seemed to be using a unique form of unit. A note buried deep in the file explained. The original surveyor had forgotten to take a tape. So had measured up using his umbrella. The length of the umbrella was on that note. I do wonder what the client thought… And was it an imperial or metric umbrella?