The Latest from Bridge City

[Andy Kev.]

I just got an email about this drilling jig:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXx0RIsSu5s

The video's worth a watch. It is typical Bridge City: probably works perfectly, is aesthetically slick and has a fair old price tag (in this case US $ 539).

That said, it does look as if it would be very useful for anybody who does a lot of drilling. I was quite taken with the idea of drilling into mitres shown towards the end of the clip.

I suspect it might inspire a few imitators.

 

[Woodster]

I like Bridge City stuff but can’t say I was that impressed with this tool. Having to rely on third party clamps to use it doesn’t seem very good. As you say though home made versions could come in handy for some folks.

I bought one of these about ten years ago and it has come in handle for some jobs.

https://www.shop.biggatortools.com/Drill-Guides_c3.htm

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

"Joint Genie" anyone?

 

[Doug]

The voice over needs to clear his throat or preferably get someone without such an annoying voice, I can’t comment on the tool as I couldn’t listen to any more than the first 30 seconds :?

 

[TrimTheKing]

The voice over needs to clear his throat or preferably get someone without such an annoying voice, I can’t comment on the tool as I couldn’t listen to any more than the first 30 seconds :?

Deliberately distorted for some odd reason. Sounded a bit like Bane from Batman!

 

[Cabinetman]

I’ve never had a problem drilling accurate holes in anything I’ve made so it’s not for me thanks, looks like a solution to a non existent problem to me.

 

[Just4fun]

I’ve never had a problem drilling accurate holes in anything I’ve made

Ah but have you (or anyone else working with wood) ever needed to drill holes accurate to 10 microns?
I never have but then I know my work is crude. With my slipshod approach I don't even need to know what a micron is :lol:

 

[Doug]

The voice over needs to clear his throat or preferably get someone without such an annoying voice, I can’t comment on the tool as I couldn’t listen to any more than the first 30 seconds :?

Deliberately distorted for some odd reason. Sounded a bit like Bane from Batman!

Don’t remember Bane, then again I only just remember Adam West :eusa-think:

 

[novocaine]

does it really claim 10 microns?

 

[Andy Kev.]

does it really claim 10 microns?

Apparently the bushings for the individual drill sizes have that accuracy.

In the light of the above comments, I wonder if what Bridge City clearly regards as the great strength of its tools - high levels of repeatable accuracy - could be seen as a bit gimmicky in the eyes of many woodworkers and hence be a weakness.

I've got two bits of kit from them: the centre scribe and the long adjustable square. My general view of them is that they are excellently made and are very precise (and they want to be at those prices!) but you can hardly regard them as being essential. But would I want to be without those two bits of kit? Certainly not, particulary the centre scribe. It does nothing I can't do with a wheel gauge but it is instant and always bang on and that is what makes it convenient.

The bit of kit under discussion will be worth its weight if it really does do away with the need for a drill press as the video claims.

Doug, I know what you mean about the computer-generated voice. I wonder why so many yank firms insist on doing that.

 

[droogs]

WOW with 10 microns of accuracy I can finally put that hole near the edge of a shelf and make sure I don't take off any of the paint or primer from underneath, truly amazing. No more breakthrough and ruined front shelf edges for me, I'm off to order 3 :eusa-dance:


BUT if thats to only colour choice then nah

 

[AJB Temple]

Daft price.

What looks to be a major weakness is it will be useless for small diameter drills as so much depth is consumed by the guide and these drills are invariably short.

 

[novocaine]

10 microns is great. Except tolerance of bits ranges between 0.003mm to 0.010mm soooooo........

 

[Andy Kev.]

Daft price.

What looks to be a major weakness is it will be useless for small diameter drills as so much depth is consumed by the guide and these drills are invariably short.

It's certainly a high price but is it a daft one?

I reckon that it depends on the answers to two question:

a. Does it, as claimed, do away with the need for a pillar drill?

b. Is it as accurate as claimed?

I'd expect the answer to b. to be "yes" and we'll only get an answer to a. once somebody has tested it. If that turns out to be a "yes" too, then the price might not look so daft.

As for small diameter drills, I think I would continue to reach for my egg beater.

 

[AJB Temple]

My Fobco Star pillar drill and the Multi function clamping vice together cost less than this tool Andy and I know which I would rather have. The video of the tool you posted shows fiddly and time consuming set up.

Unless you are working in metal at fine tolerances, the accuracy claims may be true but are unnecessary.

I will be interested to see how a user gets on with one of these.

 

[Andy Kev.]

My Fobco Star pillar drill and the Multi function clamping vice together cost less than this tool Andy and I know which I would rather have. The video of the tool you posted shows fiddly and time consuming set up.

Unless you are working in metal at fine tolerances, the accuracy claims may be true but are unnecessary.

I will be interested to see how a user gets on with one of these.

That's most definitely fair comment. FWIW I have a Proxxon table top pillar drill (which is brilliant because it is virtually silent and it meets all my needs) and a Footprint eggbeater.

However, I admire the way the BC people seem to aim for originality and precision. I'd love to see a review too.

 

[AndyT]

If you just need a bit of reassurance that you are drilling freehand but square, I reckon that the little guide block that Woodster linked to is a useful aid.

(The very talented Uri Tuchman uses one a lot.)

But that's all beside the point, isn't it. There isn't really a big market for accurate hole drilling jigs - machinery covers that need, as Adrian said.

What there is, especially in the USA, is a big pool of middle-aged men, with plenty of disposable income, who like to tinker with things in their immaculate workshops. They've already got one of everything else and have upgraded it all. But they want to treat themselves and so do their families when birthdays come around. Bridge City fits perfectly into that gap. Something nice, for the man who already has everything he needs. Well made, original and special enough to justify the premium price. Indeed, if they weren't expensive, they wouldn't give the message that they were only for the most discerning customers and wouldn't sell well at all.

 

[Woodbloke]

What there is, especially in the USA, is a big pool of middle-aged men, with plenty of disposable income, who like to tinker with things in their immaculate workshops. They've already got one of everything else and have upgraded it all. But they want to treat themselves and so do their families when birthdays come around. Bridge City fits perfectly into that gap. Something nice, for the man who already has everything he needs. Well made, original and special enough to justify the premium price. Indeed, if they weren't expensive, they wouldn't give the message that they were only for the most discerning customers and wouldn't sell well at all.

Agreed, nice bit of largely unnecessary kit, but what hasn’t been mentioned that it all BC stuff is now made in China. Definitely not cCc but nowadays I’m very reluctant to put more dosh into the coffers of the PRC, bearing in mind that they’re the planet’s biggest polluters, have a very dubious claim to the South China Sea and have treated Hong Kong appallingly (but predictably)

These days, SWIMBO and I look pretty carefully at where stuff comes from and if it’s the PRC, we tend to look elsewhere. In town there’s a very pleasant little shop near the Poultry Cross and I always go in there for a goof round. All of their stuff (arty folders, nic-nacks, kitchen and bathroom stuff etc) is sourced from Denmark and Copenhagen but when you picks up an item to see where it’s made, the label invariably said ‘Made in China’ - Rob

 

[Andy Kev.]

I think that Andy T's analysis of the probable nature of the BC customer base is probably accurate.

However, I still maintain that their original approach to tool development is to be admired. If the marketing were a bit less obvious e.g. a uniform colour instead of multi-coloured and if the prices came down somewhat, then BC could be a serious player. It's also worth remembering that the needs of the hand tool woodworker can be met completely by the second hand market, so a firm selling new non-powered tools probably has not to many potential customers.

 

[9fingers]

I get the feeling that BCT customers are mainly ones who feel the need to show their tools to other people possibly with price tags still attached.
Reminds me of the "knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing" quote whoever that was.

Bob

 

[Andy Kev.]

I get the feeling that BCT customers are mainly ones who feel the need to show their tools to other people possibly with price tags still attached.
Reminds me of the "knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing" quote whoever that was.

Bob

Possibly, but that would unfortunately detract from the value of the tools as functional devices. What I'm getting at is that we can discuss the sociology of this till the cows come home but what about the gadgets themselves?

As I said before, I have a couple of them and they are excellent. Whether or not one thinks they are worth the price is another matter. IMO the tools I have are impressive but I think I would have a psychological problem if I thought that anybody would be impressed that I had paid the prices for them

 

[AndyT]

Ok, moving away from 'who would buy one' to 'would it be useful' - I've now seen the whole video and I can't imagine ever needing to drill holes in any way that would need the gadget. In my early DIY days I made quite a few things with dowel joints which were ok and still in use - lightweight doors, small bookcases, cupboards - but I managed to make them all with the most basic £5 dowel guide. Where that didn't suit, I made my own jig from offcuts of wood which was perfectly adequate for the job.

I haven't made a set of chairs, but they are one sort of work where it often makes good sense to use a dowel joint rather than a mortice and tenon. But surely, for something like that, if you have the skill to make a set of chairs, you will make a jig suitable for your chosen design, not buy something elaborately adjustable which might well get in the way.

Ok, not all drilled holes are for dowels. Some will be for screws, but I can't think of any case where the position of a screw needs to be accurate to less than about a millimetre.

I have encountered one drilling job that needed precise hole locations - if you want to fit four metal pin shelf supports at opposite corners of a shelf and not have it wobble or need visible packing. (I'm thinking about a glass shelf in a bathroom cabinet.) Will it help with that job, remembering that you may want to drill the holes after the main cabinet has been assembled?

My other main misgiving is about reference surfaces. In hand tool woodwork, you have one face side and one face edge as reference surfaces. This device references off pairs of opposite surfaces. How would it work if your show face was planed flat but the under/ reverse / off side was left as sawn or split?

Even if you treat wood as if it was aluminium and "mill" all four sides, it won't necessarily stay uniformly flat or straight. A knot can still be felt as a lump and stresses released afterwards can turn straights into curves.

So maybe it would work on MDF or chipboard - but plenty of folk make their living making furniture from those at an economic rate without one. I can't help but think that its real usefulness would be vanishingly small.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Andy,

it would take a very odd person indeed who maintained that these tools can uniquely do things that no other tool can and the other tool would be massively cheaper or indeed free in the case of e.g. jigs you mention.

Consider the example of my BC centre scribe. I don't need it. I can do the job almost as precisely with my cutting gauge and always well enough for my practical purposes. However, the centre gauge does it bang on every time and in one movement. I love it for its brilliant convenience.

Your point about reference surfaces is interesting. When I plane up pieces of wood I mostly, but not always try to end up with two faces and two edges which are in such a relationship to each other that any one of them can function as a reference surface. I do that just because I like the craftsmanship aspect of it. I can understand that the need to sort out the "other" edge to use this tool could be seen as a bit of a bind by some and of course as you point out under some circs. it just won't work and the gadget in question wouldn't work, at least not to the accuracy claimed. Now that is something I can accept as an argument against it (as opposed to the colours, the price etc.)

It would be interesting to test this thing on a pass around basis if anybody ever gets one.

 

[Lurker]

Anyone who thinks that sort of accuracy has any place in wood work is delusional.
Anyone needing that accuracy in metal work would not be using a drill.

As a matter of interest,
If I got an “ordinary “ bit of kiln dried oak and accurately measured a 100mm bit today ( fine dry summers day) what sort size might I expect in the middle of a wet winter?
I ass assume that there is some sort of data somewhere.

 

[AndyP]

What width and how thick?
Where will it be stored?
I think there might be too many variables including where from the tree was the piece cut from, quarter sawn etc.

 

[Woodbloke]

Anyone who thinks that sort of accuracy has any place in wood work is delusional.

As a matter of note, Robert Ingham (ic of all woodworking and student projects at Parnham House) works to a tolerance of 0.1mm. You’d be very hard pushed to call RI ‘delusional’

….I managed to make them all with the most basic £5 dowel guide. Where that didn't suit, I made my own jig from offcuts of wood which was perfectly adequate for the job.

I haven't made a set of chairs, but they are one sort of work where it often makes good sense to use a dowel joint rather than a mortice and tenon. But surely, for something like that, if you have the skill to make a set of chairs, you will make a jig suitable for your chosen design, not buy something elaborately adjustable which might well get in the way.

Ok, not all drilled holes are for dowels. Some will be for screws, but I can't think of any case where the position of a screw needs to be accurate to less than about a millimetre.

I have encountered one drilling job that needed precise hole locations - if you want to fit four metal pin shelf supports at opposite corners of a shelf and not have it wobble or need visible packing. (I'm thinking about a glass shelf in a bathroom cabinet.) Will it help with that job, remembering that you may want to drill the holes after the main cabinet has been assembled?

My other main misgiving is about reference surfaces. In hand tool woodwork, you have one face side and one face edge as reference surfaces. This device references off pairs of opposite surfaces. How would it work if your show face was planed flat but the under/ reverse / off side was left as sawn or split?

Even if you treat wood as if it was aluminium and "mill" all four sides, it won't necessarily stay uniformly flat or straight. A knot can still be felt as a lump and stresses released afterwards can turn straights into curves.

So maybe it would work on MDF or chipboard - but plenty of folk make their living making furniture from those at an economic rate without one. I can't help but think that its real usefulness would be vanishingly small.

This BC gizmo though is essentially a dowel jig, is it not? When Derek Jone’s rave review of the ‘Dowelmax’ jig was published in F&C some years ago, I immediately bought one. It was quite expensive at the time, but probably half the price of this jig. It’s also superbly accurate and works off one reference surface and it’s made in Canada, not China :lol: Alas, no longer available in the UK - Rob

 

[Lurker]

Rob,
We are talking a ten times greater tolerance.
Non the less, does mr Ingram and his students work in a humity controlled environment ? Because otherwise I can't see how he ever gets anything made.
It's difficult enough to get that tolerance with steel without factoring for temperature.
I'd love to do a quality audit on his output

 

[AndyT]

This BC gizmo though is essentially a dowel jig, is it not? ... - Rob

That's the other odd thing about it. If it is meant as a dowel jig, it's an odd one. It only locates one hole at a time and doesn't - as far as I can see from the video - allow you to drill a hole in one board in the right place for a dowel already positioned in another one.

And if it's not for dowels, what sort of work are all those high-precision holes going to be in?

 

[Woodbloke]

Rob,
We are talking a ten times greater tolerance.
Non the less, does mr Ingram and his students work in a humity controlled environment ? Because otherwise I can't see how he ever gets anything made.
It's difficult enough to get that tolerance with steel without factoring for temperature.
I'd love to do a quality audit on his output

You need to see his workshop; there are probably operating theatres that are dirtier and you aren’t allowed over the threshold wearing outdoor shoes!…so yes, it’s probably air conditioned and humidity controlled - Rob

 

[Cabinetman]

Rob,
We are talking a ten times greater tolerance.
Non the less, does mr Ingram and his students work in a humity controlled environment ? Because otherwise I can't see how he ever gets anything made.
It's difficult enough to get that tolerance with steel without factoring for temperature.
I'd love to do a quality audit on his output

You need to see his workshop; there are probably operating theatres that are dirtier and you aren’t allowed over the threshold wearing outdoor shoes!…so yes, it’s probably air conditioned and humidity controlled - Rob

What on earth is he making? Sounds a bit up himself if you ask me if you have to change your shoes to enter his workshop . Do you have any links to his work please Rob?

 

[Woodbloke]

Rob,
We are talking a ten times greater tolerance.
Non the less, does mr Ingram and his students work in a humity controlled environment ? Because otherwise I can't see how he ever gets anything made.
It's difficult enough to get that tolerance with steel without factoring for temperature.
I'd love to do a quality audit on his output

You need to see his workshop; there are probably operating theatres that are dirtier and you aren’t allowed over the threshold wearing outdoor shoes!…so yes, it’s probably air conditioned and humidity controlled - Rob

What on earth is he making? Sounds a bit up himself if you ask me if you have to change your shoes to enter his workshop . Do you have any links to his work please Rob?

I’ve met RI a couple of times and if you have a delve into his book (‘Cutting Edge Cabinetmaking’, now out of print) you’ll see that his work is incredibly complicated; ‘wood engineering’ is a probably a better way to define it and it’s way above the standard cabinet making fare.

He was the boss at Parnham College during the 80’s and was responsible for tutoring many of the current top end makers who attended at that time. I have it on good authority that his nickname, given to him by the students, was simply ‘God’

That said, he’s a scholar and a gentleman. When his book first came out, I didn’t quite understand how to make his style of drawers, so I pinged him an email. Very shortly a reply came asking for my home ‘fone number as he said he would ring the next morning for a natter. Lo and behold, next morning at around tenish, the dog n’bone rang and it was RI. We talked for at least 40 minutes!

When I was working at Ax a few years ago, I was sat at my desk minding my own business when RI strolled through the office as he was a frequent visitor and a good mate of Ian Styles. His wife Katina has a RI dressing table and the only other one belongs to Jerry Hall of Mick Jagger fame.

If you ever get the chance to meet him, don’t under any circumstances turn it down! - Rob

 

[Woodster]

We commissioned a large piece of furniture to be made in three pieces. I designed the piece and drew it out on the computer and printed it out for the carpenter. When he saw it he said fine but “we don’t work to millimetres”! I said that’s fine, it’s only a guide. The piece came out exactly as we wanted.

 

[thetyreman]

very odd sounding voiceover on the bridgecity video, sounds like they hired a serial killer.

 

[Glynne]

I met up with Robert and his wife at the Trentham Gardens craft fair in June.
He has now retired from cabinet making and has moved from his workshop (which he has sold complete with all equipment). He was selling several of his amazing boxes which are a mixture of precision woodwork and engineering in terms of some of the hinges and locks. Despite being a box maker myself, I was seriously tempted to buy one of his boxes which will become collectors items in the future, if not already. I didn’t in the end as it would only depress me in terms of my efforts in comparison.
I had previously met him at Art in Action at Waterperry and then as in this June he was more then happy to explain how he constructed his boxes, the tools he used and some of the jigs he made and used. A very down to earth, knowledgeable and friendly bloke.
Evidently his book “Cutting Edge Cabinetmaking” is now out of print and copies are worth quite a bit - I actually have one!

 

[Trevanion]

Evidently his book “Cutting Edge Cabinetmaking” is now out of print and copies are worth quite a bit - I actually have one!

Yes, when Matt Estlea recommended the book a few years ago it instantly disappeared from all the secondhand markets overnight and some people were asking well over £100 for a copy which is insane. I bought a copy as part of a job lot (It was the other books I was more interested in) off UKW a couple of years back and I can't say I've read it more than the occasional glance but that's more my own ignorance than anything.

I think the market has settled down a bit now, while copies don't pop up often here's one that sold for £7 the other day

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cutting-edge-Cabinetmaking-Robert-Ingham-/1248004725267

 

[Woodbloke]

Evidently his book “Cutting Edge Cabinetmaking” is now out of print and copies are worth quite a bit - I actually have one!

I’ve got a copy too, mine’s autographed as well - Rob

 

[Andy Kev.]

With reference to levels of accuracy and having thought about it over the weekend: I wonder if we routinely hold a slightly contradictory position on this.

For instance, I'm typing at a desk made out of cherry where the edge joints are completely closed i.e. the tolerance level is plus/minus zero. To achieve that one usually scoops out the thinnest shaving from each edge, which introduces a sort of deviation from perfection (assuming the edge was planed perfectly flat in terms of the plane used, which is not an unreasonable assumption). We also expect zero deviation joints with e.g. mortice and tenons, dovetails etc.

However, we know that perfection is often unlikely and we don't care because we also know that most types of woods compress to a degree or expand to a degree upon gluing. Add to that planing over a joint shoving fibres into the tiniest of gaps and we end up with visual zero deviation. Therefore, we know from experience that the kinds of tolerance claimed by BC are unnecessary. Does that mean though that we should heap scorn on them?

I tend to think not because surely the pursuit of excellence to the nth degree cannot be a bad thing. I wonder if what most gets backs up is the marketing aimed at a clearly affluent audience. But suppose that the jig in question would do away with a pillar drill ... would that not make it a flexible alternative for someone who didn't have a pillar drill?

 

[Doug]

Isn’t the thing that if you’ve done woodwork for any amount of time you will have come across tools that give such inaccurate results that even the most talented would not get on with them.
Whilst you may not need the claimed accuracy having tools that are capable of such accuracies circumvent this problem so I can see it as a valid selling point.
Personally I use a Moore & Wright inspection square in the workshop, I doubt I need this level of accuracy but it’s good to have it & gives me confidence in what ever I’m using it for.

 

[Just4fun]

surely the pursuit of excellence to the nth degree cannot be a bad thing

In what context?

For me, farting about in my home workshop, making things for my own amusement, I think the pursuit of excellence is a good thing. I usually try to do the best I possibly can, even if it regularly falls short of excellent.

For someone working in a commercial setting, things may be different. The best is the enemy of the good and all that. In that context there comes a stage when good enough is good enough because the customer won't pay extra for something better. So why pay big money for a better tool if you can't charge more for the higher-quality work it allows you to produce?

 

[TrimTheKing]

surely the pursuit of excellence to the nth degree cannot be a bad thing

In what context?

For me, farting about in my home workshop, making things for my own amusement, I think the pursuit of excellence is a good thing. I usually try to do the best I possibly can, even if it regularly falls short of excellent.

For someone working in a commercial setting, things may be different. The best is the enemy of the good and all that. In that context there comes a stage when good enough is good enough because the customer won't pay extra for something better. So why pay big money for a better tool if you can't charge more for the higher-quality work it allows you to produce?

But in that example the commercial guy WON'T pay for the tool, so the fact the tool exists and is expensive is of absolutely zero relevance to that guy...

The fact this tool exists has next to zero impact on my life therefore I have very little concern with its existence. I do agree with Andy Kev though, I think we as a woodworking group can be as snobbish as any other group when it comes to these things.

Is it absolutely necessary to use this tool to do high quality work? Absolutely not!

Is it possible to do high quality work using this tool? Possibly, in the right hands.

Is it a magic bullet to all hole drilling scenarios? No, absolutely not.

Will it make you a better woodworker just by owning it? Nope.

Will it make you a worse woodworker? Probably not.

If you have the money for it and enjoy approaching woodwork from a more engineering perspective do I care if you use it and find it useful? Couldn't give a monkey's!

My opinion, this group, as with nearly every forum that exists, is about opinions not facts. Some of us will find it completely unnecessary because we can do the job fine right now. Some will find the price obscene and unnecessary. Some will see it, like the design, have the money and buy it. Some of us can see both sides, not see the need for it personally and also not see any need to denigrate it. That's the spice of life I guess.