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winter tyres

AndyP

AndyP

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Anyone here use them?

I will be taking the car and the family to the Jura in February for some cross country skiing and am considering getting a set of winter tyres. I have read extensively of the benefits, when to use them etc but was wondering if anyone here has any experiences.

Pretty certain I will be getting the Michelin Alpin 5 which seem to offer the best comprise of cost, performance, fuel economy and noise.

Now the kid are old enough I can see this being an annual event so I expect to get a good few years of them. We also have the room and suitable conditions to store them.
 
I bought a set for my X3.
I originally bought a SH set on the bay with BMW alloy wheels but found they wouldn't fit my newer model so sold them on and just bought some tyres instead.
I agreed with my dealer to refit them each time for a nominal fee.

Haven't tested them in earnest yet, as last winter was very mild!

Bought them for our trips up north in winter as we've had some scary incidents in the past with cars on normal tyres.

My wife had a 4WD Kuga with normal tyres, which I've driven over frozen roads and was not that impressed with it, as we skidded a few times!

Winter tyres are supposed to work best when average temperatures fall to 7C and below - I will probably get mine changed in the next couple of weeks and keep them on until end of March - depending on the weather?
Apart from punctures etc I cannot see me needing to buy tyres for several years?[emoji3]

I always thought Winter (Snow) tyres were mandatory within Continental Europe?

Rod
 
Rod":2p5x2ec7 said:
I bought a set for my X3.
I originally bought a SH set on the bay with BMW alloy wheels but found they wouldn't fit my newer model so sold them on and just bought some tyres instead.
I agreed with my dealer to refit them each time for a nominal fee.

Haven't tested them in earnest yet, as last winter was very mild!

Bought them for our trips up north in winter as we've had some scary incidents in the past with cars on normal tyres.

My wife had a 4WD Kuga with normal tyres, which I've driven over frozen roads and was not that impressed with it, as we skidded a few times!

Winter tyres are supposed to work best when average temperatures fall to 7C and below - I will probably get mine changed in the next couple of weeks and keep them on until end of March - depending on the weather?
Apart from punctures etc I cannot see me needing to buy tyres for several years?[emoji3]

I always thought Winter (Snow) tyres were mandatory within Continental Europe?

Rod
Click to expand...

Only mandatory in some regions Rod. I read a quote that suggested first fit winter tyres, then buy a 4WD.
 
I always use them and have swapped mine on my FFRR for this year.

I find Vredestein Wintrac Xtreme 4s to be excellent value. Obviously buying them at this time of year is asking for it. :lol:

As mentioned in theory the composition is better in general for times when the temp is <7degrees C.
 
I can't help feeling that use of winter tyres in UK is a triumph of a sales scheme from the joint effort of car and tyre makers.

When I started motoring typical tyre widths were 145 -155 maybe 165. These tyres were narrow enough to give good grip in snow as the ground pressure was sensibly high.

Now my current car - nothing special - and still weighing about the same as my car of 40 years ago -has 205 wide tyres which give much less grip in snow due to reduced ground pressure. I've never fitted winter tyres ( no need in the deep warm south!) but I presume they offer greater grip but at the cost of having two sets of tyres and possibly two sets of rims for convenience.

Marketing madness!

Bob
 
Not if you have to travel north in winter especially in an emergency?
And not that expensive if you factor in that your two sets should last twice as long?
The SH alloy wheels cost £100 with tyres of 6mm thread - cheaper than a new tyre.
I too live in the warmer South where we very rarely get snow but when we do I cannot get up the hill to our main road in a 2wd car until it melts as the council come nowhere near us.
And as for marketing madness - how often do you see winter tyres advertised?

Interesting but lengthy article:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/j ... h-the-cost

Rod
 
Bob, I have thought about this a lot and was quite surprised to learn how winter tyres grip in the snow. They have many times more grooves in them which fill with snow and it is the snow in those grooves that grips onto the snow on the road that provides the adhesion. The wider the tyre, the more grooves, the more grip. They are also much better in the wet slush too.

Normandy is no colder than the south of England and if it were not for skiing holiday I would not consider it. The Jura are nowhere near as high nor snow laden as the Alps and there will be a distinct possible we might have to drive to find suitable snow to ski on. With the kids as well I just cannot take the risk of not getting there nor being able to move around once there.
 
I typically keep a large chain in the boot, and two years ago when it was bad pulled several fellow 'drivers' out of trouble. Always fun to pull an X5 with 285 section tyres out! (mine are 255/50 R20)

:lol:

I live on hills and saw a few games of car pinball a couple of years ago.

I also go to Scotland regularly for work and was pretty glad of the winters on a couple of occasions.. Plus, we're all forgetting the most important advantage: talismanic! I swapped back last winter and didn't see a single day of snow :lol: :lol:
 
Hi Andyp
The best deal I found was to get professional snow chains, not only are they good in snow/ice conditions they are fantastic on mud. With a good tow rope I have rescued many acquaintances bogged down. Forget all the hyp with 4x4's, even they are useless when the tread is filled. In Europe with snow on the road or motorway you will be escorted to a rest area and not be allowed on your journey with out chains, the old bill even bulks at snow socks.
I own a 5.5 tonne motorhome and use Swiss Spike Spiders. My recommendation would be to look at all makes of continental chains and see what in your mind is the easiest to fit.
Chains are cheaper than another set of hubs and winter tyres.
Happy and safe journey's
Richard
 
Richard, thanks.

I had considered snow chains but dismissed them on the basis that they are only of use on compacted snow or ice covered roads (or as you pointed out in thick mud). And with the likelihood of constant changing road conditions I did not want to be taking them on and off to suit. The winter tyres will give me improved adhesion in all road conditions under 7degsC be it rain, slush, snow, ice or just dry but cold roads and once they are fitted I can forget them.

The wheel tyre combo will cost be about £120 each which is about £20-30 more than I would pay for quality summer tyres. As the summer tyres will now last longer I may not need to buy new tyres before I replace the car.

Of course having gone to this expense the chances of it now not snowing at all in the Jura in February will have increased :D
 
I'm confused.

Andy said "They have many times more grooves in them which fill with snow and it is the snow in those grooves that grips onto the snow on the road that provides the adhesion. The wider the tyre, the more grooves, the more grip."

and Richard said " Forget all the hyp with 4x4's, even they are useless when the tread is filled."

Which seem to contradict each other. :eusa-think:

EDIT: This from Which has a very good explanation. Sorry, Richard...duff gen ;)
 
Hi Roger
I was relating to snow on the continent, I for one would not like to argue with the polizei or gendarmerie by saying Which magazine disagrees with you. Try the Brenner pass in winter with anything other than chains.
I know what I prefer.
Kind regards
Richard
 
Hi Richard, I agree with you that chains win hands down. I was referring to snow in tread.

I got caught out in the West Coast of America one year in a hire car. Trying to get over the Sierra Nevada IIRC from San Francisco go get to Minden for some gliding. Snow started to come down, all sorts of signs talking about mandatory chains. Hire car with chains? Not a chance. Stopped for some advice locally and was told that if I was quick I'd beat the snow. They were wrong. I didn't beat the snow and had to turn back for another 100+ mile drive back to SFO. :(

Roger
 
I also would not disagree on the effectiveness of snow chains over winter tyres but the ability of winter tires to work in varying conditions make them a sensible alternative in certain circumstances.

Here are a few articles that help to explain how the grooves, more correctly called sipes, help to increase traction on a variety of winter road conditions.

http://www.which.co.uk/news/2011/11/top ... ps-270437/

http://www.which.co.uk/news/2011/11/top ... ps-270437/

http://www.tirereview.com/sipes-deserve ... -traction/
 
I was reading an article in one of the car magazines recently and, IIRC, at 70mph winter tyres reduced the stopping distance on a wet road by ten metres. :o
 
Had mine changed a couple of weeks ago, you can see the difference in the tread patterns - the standard tyres have hardly any cross treads and wide vertical groves for water shedding?

1a85f0f440bdcfa4ebeb52a986668f9f.jpg


06130cd17c0ff0f842d8cd64091129f0.jpg


The tiny holes are for studs!


Rod
 
I read both of those tests when I did my research. The auto express one is a bit out of date, 2013 and even the other site does not include the Michelin Alpin 5 that I went for.
They have been on the car now for a couple of weeks and neither of use has noticed any difference in road noise or performance. But then we have not yet had any serious weather.
 
That's interesting. I met up with a mate last night and he'd fitted winter tyres to his wife's Golf and she thought that the grip and handling was much better even in today's mild weather. That's what prompted me to start looking at these for myself.

Mind you, the Discovery is bloody heavy and the current tyres - although supposed to be good - don't give a brilliant grip in the wet = especially when breaking.
 
RogerS":2numbhuw said:
Hi Richard, I agree with you that chains win hands down. I was referring to snow in tread.

I got caught out in the West Coast of America one year in a hire car. Trying to get over the Sierra Nevada IIRC from San Francisco go get to Minden for some gliding. Snow started to come down, all sorts of signs talking about mandatory chains. Hire car with chains? Not a chance. Stopped for some advice locally and was told that if I was quick I'd beat the snow. They were wrong. I didn't beat the snow and had to turn back for another 100+ mile drive back to SFO. :(

Roger
Click to expand...
Roger: It used to be that you could rent chains when taking Interstate 80 over the Sierras, but I don't know If that is still true. Chains slow you down so much anyway that nobidy uses them unless there is a lot of snow on the road. Here in the Midwest where it's mostly flat (or flattish, anyway), I've never seen chains used. Snow tires aren't used around here either, but people do put them on in places where the snow sticks around all winter.

Kirk
 
Andy

What made you choose the Michelin Alpin?

This tyre business is a bit of a minefield. I don;t mind buying secondhand as long as there are no repairs and decent tread left as our mileage isn't that high. But there seems to be so so many variants on each manufacturers tyres and/or spec on eBay that its' difficult to compare like with like or get the exact one based on, say, that review list I linked to.

They seem to change their products as often as TV makers and so a recommendation on a forum isn't that helpful as chances are, unless it's been very recent, then the exact tyre being recommended is not available new.
 
Firstly my inability to "feel" the difference is probably down to my driving style and skills. If I pushed the summer tyres to their limit and likewise the winter ones I am sure I would tell the difference.

As for choosing the Michelin Alpin, I have the Alpin5 btw.
1) The Alpin 4 had some very good test results on line from the major mags (easy to find). I assumed the Alpin 5 would not be worse.
2) The price, compared to the top performers, seemed reasonable bearing in mind my driving stile and intended use.
3)The performance data, snow, ice, water, dry and noise, again seemed very good again compared to the top performers.
4) I had heard of Michelin
5) They were in stock.

I have a long drive to the UK in a few days time in hopefully some more testing conditions, I'll report on my return, if I ever make it back :D
 
I think you might find that your choice could well be limited at this time of year?
It certainly was last year when I got mine when I found the S/H ones I had bought would not fit my newer model!

I bought these at a very good price:

0345240a365e3f69d1d0fadc2aa538a5.jpg


4bb3f410d8e47ca41ce625526307f061.jpg


And thankfully had no difficulty selling them on.

Finding S/H wheels for my model was impossible so I just bought the tyres.


Rod
 
Well with some very heavy frosts in the UK I had a play in a frost covered and very slippery car park earlier in the week. I tried to induce wheel spin while pulling away and failed. I then also tried to skid under heavy braking and turning, I could not even get the ABS to kick in.

Test not scientific of course and I could test the summer tyres in the same conditions so cannot be sure how they would have performed.

Will get a better idea if the conditions are still the same when we get here:- (webcam)
http://www.lesrousses.com/fr/divers/web ... n-ski.html
 
One thing that decided me to get winter tyres was getting stuck in our local GP's car park on our way up north one December, getting stuck at my Mum's place and then my MIL's - all in one day on a 250 Mile trip. This was in a 5 Series Touring with normal tyres and on ice - no snow!
Even worse on the same journey the following January but this time in snow.

This is the 2 season I've had them on my X3 but so far have not really put them to the test - a few frosts but roads etc had been gritted. Was excused the annual trips North this year (first time since 1967).

Rod
 
Here in Italy it is a legal requirement to have either a set of snow chains with you in the car during the winter months, or snow tyres. With very low temperatures (a couple of years ago we had -25c one night!), chains are essential if you are driving in snow and ice, as we have at the moment. They are quick to fit once one has tried them out - best to practice in warmer weather - so a cheap, sensible option even if it isn't a legal requirement. I think the ones I keep in my car cost about €35, so not a huge expense given the way they make driving in snow or ice so much safer.
 
RogerS":2rk7wxnv said:
Peter, is that the law even for say Sicily ? Does Sicily get snow ?
Click to expand...

I live in the north of Italy and here it is compulsory. Every province can enforce specific legislation with the general rule being that if snow is likely (most of Italy, including Sicily) then snow chains MUST be kept in the car and fitted when directed by either road signs of police instruction - and they do. If you are going to Sicily then you would, presumably, be renting a car, so the car should be "in compliance" with the local laws - but check with the rental agency before heading off into hilly country. Sicily is quite mountainous - certainly when compared to the UK - so snow is not unusual anywhere there, with the more mountainous parts certainly getting a good covering. Remember that you can ski in Sicily! You will find much out-of-date 'advice' on the internet, but bear in mind that the law changed only a couple of years ago which gave the separate regions the ability to enforce their own laws regarding chains. Be safe, not sorry, eh?

The AA says this: http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/ov ... tyres.html

The RAC, this: http://www.rac.co.uk/travel/driving-abr ... -in-winter

A more general advice site in the UK: http://www.drive-alive.co.uk/driving/dr ... -italy.htm

and a PDF from one of the regions (in English) which will give you a better idea as to how it works.
http://www.yewtreehouse.org/LUSIGNANA/P ... Chains.pdf

Buona fortuna!
 
Interesting comments to the video! Winter tyres AND 4x4 must surely be the best option. I did mention getting some to SWMBO who, given the weather here, felt it didn't justify the expense. So far this is the third mild winter we've had (we've escaped this years' snow so far) and TBH it's not as if we have to go out in it.

Now here is a question for you all. Snowy road and a left-hand bend. You drive into it and the back starts to spin out (classic oversteer). Do you turn the steering wheel to :-

a) the left ?

b) the right ?

This link is also quite good http://www.drivingfast.net/techniques/w ... niques.htm
 
RogerS":h857uxgd said:
Now here is a question for you all. Snowy road and a left-hand bend. You drive into it and the back starts to spin out (classic oversteer). Do you turn the steering wheel to :-

a) the left ?

b) the right ?
Click to expand...

To the right.
 
Well the answer is steer into the skid normally, left hand bend means oversteer sends back out to the right so turn front wheels to the right. The first year I passed my driving test we had very heavy snow, so I took my car to an empty car park and 'threw it around' for a couple of hours, great big sstraight skids, seeing how many times I could spin it, correcting skids, etc. After that I have always felt a relative degree of confidence driving in slippery conditions. IMHO one of the biggest contributors to accidents (in the snow or otherwise) is a lack of confidence which leads to panic when things don't go as planned.

Turning into the skid, whether on snow or otherwise has always worked very well for me. But I can only presume as far as I am aware this is 'known' by almost everyone and you have asked the question specifying snow that you will provide a learned source saying the answer is different when on snow.

Terry.
 
Opposite lock is what you're all talking about and is what I thought one did on snow.

Not so, apparently. You turn into the bend and so in my scenario you turn the steering left.
 
Wizard9999":nexhyeuz said:
According to who, and why?
Click to expand...

It was on the TV this morning and he was introduced as an instructor. However, having read more about it I think he was talking rubbish!

We're right. Opposite lock is what you need.
 
RogerS":25qawogg said:
It was on the TV this morning and he was introduced as an instructor. However, having read more about it I think he was talking rubbish!
Click to expand...

Well, that's what you get for watching Fox News :lol: Presumably the same guy who said Birmingham was a Muslim ghetto and a "no go area" for anyone who is not Muslim.

Terry.
 
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