Wales 20mph speed limit

[AJB Temple]

Just been to Aberystwyth. Moved someone else's Beneteau Oceanis 420 (never driven one before) to the Marina here (rough and windy throughout) and met up with wifey and her parents to bring me back. Went for a drive round for a day or two and this was my first encounter with the much derided 20mph speed limit.

Well, based on media reports I thought it sounded awful. Reality is different. In practice there is a 20mph limit through the centre of towns and villages. Often this is just a few hundred yards. I can see that this is super safe for pedestrians (not that you ever see any in most parts of Wales). It feels very slow, but there is also very little chance of squashing a child or cat. All the good twisty bits that I remember from motorcycle trips here are still 60mph as before. Almost no traffic. Hence I find myself in favour of this change. Media has over egged it. Good move Wales.

Some things are odd though. There is a large nature reserve about 10 miles from the marina and we went to watch the spectacular red kite feeding. Maybe 200 of them. It was cold, windy and wet and there were still at least 100 people there. They fed the kites at 3pm - and when that was over by 3.15 nearly everyone was ready for a coffee. But they shut the cafe at 3pm - just before peak demand and a captive, eager customer base. They are at threat of closure apparently due to a need to save £3m. across the parks in this area of the country. Also, Wales is apparently pretty much closed on Wednesdays.

 

[Malc2098]

One might be surprised at the difference a child's head makes denting a windscreen at 30mph compared to 20mph or less ( let alone what it does to the head).

 

[—Tom—]

Went to uni at Aber and fond memories. Near the red kite centre are some great mountain biking routes - used to cycle out, do the routes and then cycle back- often trying to shake off a hangover.
The starling murmurations used to be awesome too- could tell the locals on pier street as every evening you’d here what sounded like light rain as they approached so you’d take cover or get pelted by gifts from above.

 

[AndyP]

I’ve never understood the furore around the 20mph limit. There have been 30kph zones (less than 19mph) here for ages.
Never caused me a problem.

 

[Dr.Al]

I’ve never understood the furore around the 20mph limit. There have been 30kph zones (less than 19mph) here for ages.
Never caused me a problem.

When they first introduced it in Wales it was a blanket thing. Imagine every 50kph limit in France being 30kph.

I think some of it has been relaxed now so it's more selective and nowhere near as comprehensive as it was initially.

The problem I always had with it was that it devalued the places that really needed the lower limit. I used to commute along a 20mph narrow residential street in Bath and people used to drive along it at or very close to 20mph. When they introduced the blanket 20mph on most of Bath, the typical speed on that residential road increased to more like 25mph as everyone treated it as "just another unnecessary 20 limit".

 

[ebiker]

Just been to Aberystwyth. Moved someone else's Beneteau Oceanis 420 (never driven one before) to the Marina here (rough and windy throughout) and met up with wifey and her parents to bring me back. Went for a drive round for a day or two and this was my first encounter with the much derided 20mph speed limit.

Well, based on media reports I thought it sounded awful. Reality is different. In practice there is a 20mph limit through the centre of towns and villages. Often this is just a few hundred yards. I can see that this is super safe for pedestrians (not that you ever see any in most parts of Wales). It feels very slow, but there is also very little chance of squashing a child or cat. All the good twisty bits that I remember from motorcycle trips here are still 60mph as before. Almost no traffic. Hence I find myself in favour of this change. Media has over egged it. Good move Wales.

Some things are odd though. There is a large nature reserve about 10 miles from the marina and we went to watch the spectacular red kite feeding. Maybe 200 of them. It was cold, windy and wet and there were still at least 100 people there. They fed the kites at 3pm - and when that was over by 3.15 nearly everyone was ready for a coffee. But they shut the cafe at 3pm - just before peak demand and a captive, eager customer base. They are at threat of closure apparently due to a need to save £3m. across the parks in this area of the country. Also, Wales is apparently pretty much closed on Wednesdays.

Driving through rural areas such as Aberystwyth is completely different to the towns / villages of South Wales, Constant 20 mph for literally miles - for me to get to town centre from home involves in 4 miles at 20 mph. Most people now ignore the limit except learners and those cars with black boxes. The "easing" of retrictions has not yet taken place and is down to individual councils to make a case.

 

[AndyP]

When they first introduced it in Wales it was a blanket thing. Imagine every 50kph limit in France being 30kph.

I think some of it has been relaxed now so it's more selective and nowhere near as comprehensive as it was initially.

The problem I always had with it was that it devalued the places that really needed the lower limit. I used to commute along a 20mph narrow residential street in Bath and people used to drive along it at or very close to 20mph. When they introduced the blanket 20mph on most of Bath, the typical speed on that residential road increased to more like 25mph as everyone treated it as "just another unnecessary 20 limit".

Fair enough, I hadn’t realised that it was quite so widespread.

Are you learning to recognise the variations in the shape of speed humps over here? There seems to be no standard to which they are made. Some, when driven over at the identified speed, can give an uncomfortable thump.
Lookout for the gouge marks made by tow bars and trailers. The more there are the move severe the angle of the hump will be.

 

[Artiglio]

My mother lives about 20 miles north of Aberystwyth, the 20mph zones are not as chaotic and seemingly random as they once were, conflicting signage has been removed and there’s less confusion.
Must be said most locals just ignore the signs, but must be said every year there’ll be fatalities on the rural roads as there’s seemingly some sort of deathwish amongst a significant number of welsh drivers.
Roads will be quiet this time of year, schools are back but the slightly older childless end of season tourists usually start this weekend and they’ll have largely stopped visiting by mid october.
Wales and its public bodies have adopted work from home with great zeal, those that can’t work from home look for any manner in which to reduce their working day.
Mid/North Wales has changed hugely in the last 40 years, it’s hard to see how it’ll survive economically and socially the way its going and the health service is in many ways nigh on third world, ( the welsh language rules mean they have real problems recruiting skilled staff, notionally there are exemptions for key workers, but unless a couple can find a similar exemption for the second person they won’t move into wales).
The traditional holiday let / accomodation industry has been devastated by the second home rules, had massive effects on those that had built businesses under wales historic view that anything that attracted tourists was good and so a blind eye turned so long as there were no complaints, but as soon as more money can be extracted from business owners they can’t issue bills fast enough.
It’ll be interesting to see how things pan out over the years.

 

[AJB Temple]

Yes. I must say that I don't know Wales well, but it gives the impression of being somewhat run down in the rural areas we have looked around. On the other hand the roads are surprisingly good - few pot holes. Kent is much worse. The Marina is very quiet. I've not seen a single other boat in or out and the small fishing fleet (mostly crab boats by the look of it) has not moved at all for a week I am told.

 

[Tiresias]

We’ve had the 20 mph for a while in the ‘burgh and Scottish Borders. They were thinking of a blanket one 2025, but survival for the SNP is probably more pressing for them than forcing that through.

My own observations:

In Edinburgh it has made no difference whatsoever. Every one still travels at about mid to high twenties, traffic allowing, including the polis and busses. The arterial routes are still 30. A sop to the greens.

In the Borders, a few glitches (Romanno Bridge n bound: 60 to 20 to 40 to 60. In about a mile. Generally ignored. But that’s borderers for you.

I have been told that Gatso can’t do 20 mph. Or aren’t licenced to do so. But my polis informants only include the ex-husband – motor cycle traffic cop - of one of my secretaries (nice but very dull) and the former head of CID in Edinburgh (old, lucid, but maybe not entirely coherent. Oh, and now dead. But the stories…). I would be interested to know if that is true.

Upshot: 911 pre regs New Town to Borders 50 minutes, if you hoofed it. Defender post regs (and this now includes avoiding the fatuous LEZ) 1 hour 10 minutes.

I can live with that.

 

[RogerS]

If you want an example of bizarre speed limits then pop over a road near Evesham. 500 yds 30mph then 600yds 40mph then 600yds 30mph then 700yds 50mph. You couldn't make it up.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Th village all around me is 20mph. No one takes the slightest bit of notice.

 

[Trevanion]

I think you have to live and commute in rural Wales to appreciate how terrible of an idea it was. I was staunchly against the legislation, mostly because it was very poorly implemented, there was very little to no public consultation prior to it happening, and above all else, it cost the government an absolute fortune of around £35m. Now there are talks of returning some limits back to 30 and that would cost millions as well. I don't think anyone was particularly against having safer roads but it was a very poor way to implement it by changing all existing built-up area speed limits from 30 to 20, I'm not entirely convinced that these were the "problem" roads that we have, there are far more dangerous roads that are the national speed limit that could have been reduced in speed to reduce commonplace accidents but they have stayed the same, there are a lot of villages and hamlets that remain at the national speed limit.

I happened to be doing a lot of work in one of the trial villages before and after they introduced the 20mph and for anyone driving it became an absolute nightmare to navigate through the village because of the congestion. When it was 30mph there was a decent flow of traffic in and out and very rarely any issues, after the 20mph limit was introduced throughout the village it suddenly became very congested every time you drove through which I believe was down to vehicles coming to such a slow pace from higher speed limit roads that they would accumulate from each end and you would have a block of cars approaching each other which would come together in the high street which isn't wide enough for more than one vehicle to pass at a time so you would end up with quite a traffic jam several times a day.

Now we're getting incredible cuts to council allowances, they've just taken all the streetlamps away from rural roads in Pembrokeshire because "they cost too much to run and they're not required" including the one outside our house, they only a few months ago changed all the bulbs from the old orange halogen ones to new LED ones! I would've thought if the reasoning behind the 20mph limits was more safety surely keeping the streetlamps would also contribute to overall safety?

I must say that I don't know Wales well, but it gives the impression of being somewhat run down in the rural areas we have looked around.

West Wales was at one point considered one of the poorest economic regions in the whole of Europe, not sure if it still is but it wasn't that long ago.

 

[AJB Temple]

Interesting Dan and I know a bit more now. We've stayed a few extra days as I am teaching an inexperienced (and pretty much uninsured as he doesn't even have coastal skipper licence ) new owner how to handle the very basics of a boat that is well beyond his ability. Anyway, I needed to drive from Cardigan to Aberystwyth this evening along the coastal road and ended up following a big tanker, that I must say was being driven superbly. The implementation of the limits is confusing and the sat nav is also often unsure what the limit is. In one spot we had a short section of 30 / 40 / 30 sandwiched by two 20s. By and large in the small short sections in most villages the tanker driver slowed, but not to 20. Most locals also appear to slow but not as low as 20.

In one nice village about half way, we had a crazy jam with tanker and following snake one way and bus and following snake the other, meeting parked cars on both sides. What is an orderly snake on the open road, becomes a nose to tail snake in the 20 zone and gridlock can ensue if two elephants meet. The lorry just about squeezed through expertly but it was clear that in busy times it would be chaos. It is hard to work out why some bits are 30 and some 20 - it's almost random to a tourist like me.

 

[ebiker]

Driving through rural areas such as Aberystwyth is completely different to the towns / villages of South Wales, Constant 20 mph for literally miles - for me to get to town centre from home involves in 4 miles at 20 mph. Most people now ignore the limit except learners and those cars with black boxes. The "easing" of retrictions has not yet taken place and is down to individual councils to make a case.

I forgot to add that bus timetables have been trashed because the buses can't do the journeys in the specified times and the Labour run councils ae unlikely to change them anyway

 

[HappyHacker]

The Parish council tried to get a 20 mph speed limit in my local village in England. It was refused. They would not allow it as hey would need traffic calming measures to ensure that the traffic could not exceed 20mph and the Parish would need to pay for them. The police said they would not enforce 20mph limits.

Most of the village usually has cars parked forming chicanes which limit the speed and the road is narrow in palaces requiring cars to stop but there are a few hundred yards where they can easily exceed the current 30mph limit and they do.

 

[Trevanion]

It is hard to work out why some bits are 30 and some 20 - it's almost random to a tourist like me.

It's to do with what's classed as a "built-up area" or a "restricted road", how these are classed is that the "lampposts placed not more than 200 yards apart", those roads used to be 30mph as standard but now are 20mph. It hasn't helped that they've totally removed repeater signs to remind you of the 20mph limit, where before they would be fixed onto lampposts every so often.

I personally think the legislation has only weakened the effect that a 20mph limit has, where people used to take 20mph limits quite seriously as they weren't that common and usually outside schools, hospitals, etc... they are now everywhere and people largely ignore them, including the ones that were previously 20mph.

Dyfed Powys police do not have the manpower to enforce any of it, and they haven't been enforcing it, I'm not even sure if they want to enforce it as it would make them incredibly unpopular.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Our local councillor, a virtue signalling, self righteous pillock told us that the 20mph limits were a good idea as presumably we didn't want our children and grandchildren dying from exhaust pollution (in a small village in W. Cornwall, with a prevailing strong westerly wind) and the that the limit would be vigorously enforced by the police. These are the same police of course that didn't ever enforce the 30mph that existed quite necessarily before. 99 out of 100 drivers take no notice whatsoever.

 

[AJB Temple]

I'm not sure the pollution argument stacks up at all. When it is busy the jams in the 20 sections must take longer to clear so cars are pumping out gases more as are buses and lorries. (Not ours). But the chances of a serious accident with a pedestrian seem as if they may be reduced.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The vehicles are also running at higher revs than necessary. Drivers also drive with their eyes on the speedo not the road. The PIAs are often higher around speed cameras.

 

[Tellurian]

As others have said, the 20 limit is pretty much ignored everywhere. If the police won't stop the scroats that are a common feature riding untaxed, uninsured scramblers and quads, quite often doing wheelies and tearing up grass verges and roundabouts, why would they bother with someone doing 25 in a 20 limit?
The other roads to mention are the motorways and dual carriageways that have become 50mph enforced with average speed cameras. The mantra is that it's to improve air quality but the A465 down through the Clydach gorge now stinks of brakes from the down traffic and exhaust fumes from the up traffic that have to change down a gear to get up the hill.

 

[AndyP]

Came across an interesting traffic light in a village near Cherbourg the other week. It would stay green unless you approached it above the speed limit, 50kph IIRC.

 

[John Brown]

Why does driving at 20 entail staring at the speedometer, but not driving at 30?

 

[Trevanion]

Why does driving at 20 entail staring at the speedometer, but not driving at 30?

Decades of getting used to driving at 30mph I would guess and some cars not being geared well for cruising at 20mph, more than likely people will get used to 20mph before long but that’s not the only issue with it.

 

[Artiglio]

AJB, without doubt in general welsh roads are in excellent condition in comparison to the nigh on ploughed fields with cart ruts my part of kent enjoys. As in other comments the welsh 20mph is often non sensical , i’ve either got used to it ( i use same roads each journey) or signage has improved.
Talking to those that deliver to mums, the limits are causing havoc with all the couriers, post office, meter readers, bus services etc etc. Additional vehicles and drivers required and routes need replanning, quite how it all shakes out is to be seen, but it must add to costs and eventually inflation.
I’m in thanet and the local loon councillors would have 20mph everywhere each time there’s an accident in which speed was a factor ( of course they ignore the often drink, drug, banned, uninsured, no mot, no licence etc that is also often involved). Never seems to occur to them that an idiot driving at 60 in a 30 is equally unlikely to observe a 20 limit.

 

[RogerS]

Why does driving at 20 entail staring at the speedometer, but not driving at 30?

I think it might be to do with the fact that we are all, for the most part, used to the sounds, wind noise etc, tyre noise etc that ourcars make at 30mph. We're just not used to the snailpace of 20 mph.

 

[John Brown]

I think I probably agree with those answers - I do know that I find it harder to maintain 30mph in hybrids without looking at the speedo, as you don't get the same feel of the speed. I reckon I can glance at the speedo periodically, however, without adversely affecting road safety.

 

[RogerS]

I think that our car has a gizmo that will cruise at whatever the speed limit is.

 

[John Brown]

I've had cars that wouldn't let you set the cruise control below 30mph.

 

[RogerS]

I've had cars that wouldn't let you set the cruise control below 30mph.

I'll try it out. Cruise control is great for those 20 mile stretches of "Not-A-Workman-In-Sight" motorways.

 

[MartinF]

Going back to AndyP’s comments about traffic calming in France, where our daughter lives in the Franche Comte, some villages have taken traffic calming to extremes. On her route to work, she has to go through about 6 or 7 villages. Nearly all have the traffic light system that Andy mentioned followed by a combination of chicanes, ramps, priorite a droit and sleeping policemen. In less than a mile you can be faced with up to 6 or 7 obstacles.