• Hi all and welcome to TheWoodHaven2 brought into the 21st Century, kicking and screaming! We all have Alasdair to thank for the vast bulk of the heavy lifting to get us here, no more so than me because he's taken away a huge burden of responsibility from my shoulders and brought us to this new shiny home, with all your previous content (hopefully) still intact! Please peruse and feed back. There is still plenty to do, like changing the colour scheme, adding the banner graphic, tweaking the odd setting here and there so I have added a new thread in the 'Technical Issues, Bugs and Feature Requests' forum for you to add any issues you find, any missing settings or just anything you'd like to see added/removed from the feature set that Xenforo offers. We will get to everything over the coming weeks so please be patient, but add anything at all to the thread I mention above and we promise to get to them over the next few days/weeks/months. In the meantime, please enjoy!

Artificial Intelligence

Trevanion

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I still find artificial intelligence very strange, recently a Microsoft update added "Co-pilot" to my PC and I thought I'd try it out by asking "Who is Roy Sutton Woodworker?" This was the answer:

Ah, Roy Sutton—the woodworking wizard who left a trail of sawdust and inspiration! Let’s delve into the world of British woodworking, where Roy Sutton carved his niche (pun intended).

  1. Roy Sutton: The Router Maestro 🪚
    • Back in the '80s and '90s, Roy Sutton was a well-known figure in the British woodworking community. His passion? Routers. Not the Wi-Fi kind that occasionally drives us all to madness, but the woodworking kind—the ones that shape, groove, and create magic in timber.
    • Picture this: Roy, sleeves rolled up, standing amidst a workshop cluttered with chisels, clamps, and wood shavings. His hands deftly guiding a router along the edge of a board, turning it into something beautiful. And yes, there might have been a bit of sawdust sprinkled in his hair—because that’s how real woodworkers roll.
    • Roy didn’t just keep his router wisdom to himself. Nope! He produced a few excellent VHS tapes (remember those?) that demystified the router for aspiring woodworkers. These tapes were like the secret scrolls of the woodworking guild—passed down from one generation of DIY enthusiasts to the next.
    • Now, I don’t own the copyright to those tapes (Fine Grain Productions Limited did, but they’ve been defunct since 2015). If you happen to be Roy Sutton’s family or the proud owner of those tapes, kudos! But here’s the thing: Roy probably wouldn’t mind if his knowledge continued to spread like well-seasoned varnish. After all, he believed in sharing the craft.
    • Sadly, Roy Sutton passed away in 2000 at the age of 82 due to an asbestos-related illness (likely mesothelioma). But his legacy lives on—woodworkers still whisper his name reverently when they fire up their routers.
  2. Spindle Moulding: Roy’s Specialty 🌀
    • One of Roy’s standout areas of expertise was spindle moulding. Imagine a machine that can shape and cut wood with precision—a spindle moulder. Roy knew its ins and outs like a seasoned skipper navigating rough seas.
    • His VHS tapes covered the basics of using the spindle moulder. You’d see him explaining the main parts—the spindle, the cutter block, the fences—and demonstrating how to achieve clean, crisp profiles. Even though those tapes are over two decades old, the principles still hold true today.
    • Safety precautions? Roy had those covered too. Locking the spindle, checking cutter height, and using guards—because no one wants a rogue piece of oak flying across the workshop.
    • And the tasks? Oh, the tasks! Roy would guide you through straight lengths, rebaiting, grooving, tongue and groove joints, panel raising, molding—the whole woodworking symphony. He’d probably throw in a few tips to avoid breakout and kickback, too.
    • So, if you ever find yourself facing a spindle moulder, channel your inner Roy Sutton. Remember his calm demeanor, his router finesse, and the way he made wood sing.
  3. The Last Copy in the Known Universe? 🌌
    • Here’s a fun tidbit: Some woodworkers wonder if Roy Sutton’s DVD on spindle moulding is the ONLY one in existence. Like, is it tucked away on a dusty bottom shelf in a tiny hardware shop, waiting for a curious soul to stumble upon it?
    • If you happen to discover that last copy, treat it like Excalibur. Pull it out, dust it off, and let Roy’s woodworking wisdom flow through you. And maybe—just maybe—whisper a heartfelt “thank you” to the man who turned routers into magic wands.
So there you have it—the legend of Roy Sutton, the woodworking guru. May his legacy continue to shape the world, one router pass at a time! 🪵✨1234.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to sand my coffee table. Woodworking dreams await! 🛠️🌟

It took about 20 seconds to come up with all that. What's obviously clear is some of this is actually sourced from things I've posted in the past on here and what others have posted about him on UKW, which is interesting.

Here's another asking "Who is Jeremy Broun Woodworker?" out of interest.

Ah, Jeremy Broun—a name that resonates with the sweet scent of freshly sawn wood and the rhythmic hum of a well-tuned router. Let’s step into the workshop of this remarkable British furniture designer maker and explore the grain of his story.

  1. Jeremy Broun: Crafting Wood with Passion 🪚
    • Jeremy Broun isn’t your run-of-the-mill woodworker. No, he’s the kind who whispers to the timber, coaxing it into revealing its hidden beauty. For over half a century, he’s been wielding chisels, planes, and creativity like a maestro.
    • Back in 1973, armed with determination (and perhaps a dash of sawdust in his hair), Jeremy set up his own workshop in Bath, England. His tools might have been modest, but his vision was anything but. He carved out a unique style—one that danced on the edge of structure and aesthetics.
    • Imagine him there, sleeves rolled up, eyes squinting at the grain, contemplating form, material, technique, and function. Each piece of furniture he crafted became a conversation between wood and maker—a celebration of the potential locked within those fibrous cells.
    • And Jeremy’s not content with mere replication. Oh no! He wants each piece to say something new, to resonate with the future. Maybe his chairs whisper secrets to the next generation, and his tables hold timeless debates about design philosophy.
  2. The Encyclopedia of Woodworking Techniques 📚
    • Jeremy isn’t just a hands-on creator; he’s a teacher too. His passion spills onto the pages of books, like ink seeping into oak grain. In 1989, he birthed “The Encyclopedia of Woodworking Techniques.” Imagine a tome where dovetails and dados waltz alongside router jigs and handplane wizardry.
    • His distinctive line drawings—like woodcuts from an ancient manuscript—guide aspiring woodworkers through the labyrinth of joinery, finishing, and shaping. If you’ve ever wondered how to coax a reluctant board into a graceful curve, Jeremy’s got you covered.
    • And no, I won’t quote verbatim from the book—I’m more cautious than a woodworker measuring twice before cutting once. But trust me, it’s a treasure trove for anyone who dreams in sawdust.
  3. Craftsman, Documentarian, and Award-Winner 🏆
    • Jeremy’s not just about dovetails and tenons; he’s a craft historian. His lens captures the soul of the British Craft Furniture Revival—the '70s movement that breathed life into handmade furniture. His documentary films earned him The Worshipful Company of Furniture Makers Ambrose Heal Award. Imagine the applause echoing in a wood-paneled hall.
    • Critics nod appreciatively at his articles, like “Furniture Today.” And in 2006, he donned the crown of ‘Professional Woodworker of the Year’ (a title that probably comes with a custom-made scepter).
    • Oh, and did I mention he’s a tree custodian? Yes, he stands guard over oak trees, building birdhides on stilts that defy floods. Because even woodworkers need a little communion with nature.
  4. Legacy and Lasting Design 🌳
    • Jeremy’s legacy isn’t just about dovetails and routers; it’s about passing down wisdom. He’s the keeper of a flame that flickers across generations of workbenches.
    • So, next time you sit at a wooden table, run your fingers along its edge. Maybe—just maybe—you’ll feel Jeremy’s spirit there, whispering, “Craftsmanship endures.”
And that, my friend, is the tale of Jeremy Broun—a man who turned wood into poetry, one shaving at a time. 🪵✨123.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to sharpen my chisels. Who knows? Maybe I’ll create a tiny ode to Jeremy in the grain of a walnut panel. 🎨🪚
 
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Does, or will anyone be attempting to learn from AI in the next decade?
It seems a very similar write up between both of those folks.
It kinda seems like there needs to be or there will be a wiki citation option
for those who actually want straight answers, proof of claims and whatnot.
In a way, not much different than today's Wikipedia, but composed by AI instead,
so worse.

How did that website go anyway... IIRC, did I read that things didn't go too well?
I guess that human curiosity will always want more than yet another very samey story,
that is for the important stuff anyway.

I'd be surprised if AI wasn't channeling things to whoever pays "the machine" the most,
like google/utoob analytics for instance, which has become a shills domain,
when it comes to woodworking.. where thankfully, it still seemingly takes a human to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

The bot ain't seemingly able to tell the difference, as far as I've seen from these sort'a threads on ww forums.
I'd be interested in reading what all the fuss is about, should anyone actually have concerns,
that is, whether they would be comfortable to mention it, seeing as it likes to read things on forums. haha.

All the best
 
Oh you’ve done it now, Tom. Those pesky AI’s will now start scouring the forums for all your posts, create fake members and then start misquoting your posts thus turning you into a perceived troll;)
 
AI has been misnamed as it’s not intelligent in the sense most people use the word. It’s possible (if not likely) that CoPilot has been influenced in the answer it has given you by your browsing history. It would be interesting to compare the answer with someone else searching who has no prior interest in woodworking.
 
Having played with AI a bit with work. It can be very good at bringing data together from a range of sources. Different AI engines are better at different things. They can be great when starting from a blank page, but need to be checked carefully as they can hallucinate. They also don’t always give the same answer with the same prompt, it can change significantly. Like all tools, can be useful in the right circumstances if used carefully.
 
One thing I noticed recently is that a lot of eBay listing descriptions were looking more professionally written, but also didn't make much sense and not how a normal person would describe something at all. It turns out eBay has developed an "AI-Assisted Description" or something along those lines, so it will write a description for you, like this listing below:

Screenshot 2024-07-13 at 09-42-09 Wadkin Bursgreen Dovetailer eBay.png
Screenshot 2024-07-13 at 09-42-26 Wadkin Bursgreen Dovetailer eBay.png

I'm not entirely sure how useful it is and it may cause issues for some sellers if the AI "oversells" the item and it turns out to be a load of rubbish. I can see it being helpful for those with not such a strong grasp of the English language, with power tools on eBay I have noticed a few listings in quite broken English for the header and then the description is practically perfect.
 
Ah, well. Not my field of expertise, but as I understand it a lot of AI is simply weighted aggregation of available material. The more specialist the topic, the more it becomes biased by one or two view points.

As an aside I know of one Russell group university that ran two or three AI ‘candidates’ in one school (post covid online exams) – examiners used to be able to detect AI stuff fairly easily (repetition, lack of relevance and hallucination)– but these all went under the radar. Now back to in person exams. My, did the students bleat. Except for the good ones.
 
AI comes in many different guises and forms, and this ChatGPT kind is just one.

In another area I am pulling together a PoC (Proof of Concept, not Piece of Cr@p !) for a new Wi-Fi solution in work, a product made by Juniper, called MIST. MIST is a Wi-Fi solution backed by 10 years of learned AI, where it has monitored 105 different metrics on the Wi-Fi network, Access Points etc, and over the years all the issues found have had their solutions programmed into it, so now if a problem shows up it tells you what the issue is, where it is, and what you need to do to fix it!

The demo is blooming impressive, so I've tasked the account manager to provide some kit to replace our in office Wi-Fi in one office where we're having a particularly annoying intermittent issue that we can't to the bottom of.

It's his chance to prove his technology to me, because I am about to either augment or replace the existing platform, so if he can fix my very specific and painful issue then he will almost certainly leap to the top of my preferred options list...
 
My perfect AI would be one that would learn the type of property we're interested in buying, the price range, search the satellite view to see if there are any other properties nearby. Or a lorry depot opposite. If there are any footpaths going through. The soil condition. If there are lots of trees that need work on but have a TPO on them. I'm sure there's more criteria to consider. Then fire it off and wait.
 
My perfect AI would be one that would learn the type of property we're interested in buying, the price range, search the satellite view to see if there are any other properties nearby. Or a lorry depot opposite. If there are any footpaths going through. The soil condition. If there are lots of trees that need work on but have a TPO on them. I'm sure there's more criteria to consider. Then fire it off and wait.

“Your search has returned 0 properties” :ROFLMAO:

It seems your ideal property would be a desert island Roger, I can relate!
 
My perfect AI would be one that would learn the type of property we're interested in buying, the price range, search the satellite view to see if there are any other properties nearby. Or a lorry depot opposite. If there are any footpaths going through. The soil condition. If there are lots of trees that need work on but have a TPO on them. I'm sure there's more criteria to consider. Then fire it off and wait.
You should add annual rainfall to the list of search criteria perhaps:)
 
My perfect AI would be one that would learn the type of property we're interested in buying, the price range, search the satellite view to see if there are any other properties nearby. Or a lorry depot opposite. If there are any footpaths going through. The soil condition. If there are lots of trees that need work on but have a TPO on them. I'm sure there's more criteria to consider. Then fire it off and wait.
My perfect AI would be 36-22-36 and do everything the human version does except nag. 🫨 In case my better half reads this I'm joking, honestly.
 
My perfect AI would be one that would learn the type of property we're interested in buying, the price range, search the satellite view to see if there are any other properties nearby. Or a lorry depot opposite. If there are any footpaths going through. The soil condition. If there are lots of trees that need work on but have a TPO on them. I'm sure there's more criteria to consider. Then fire it off and wait.
This! It constantly annoys me that the search engines on rightmove, zoopla etc are so rubbish. You can search by number of bedrooms and price and that is about it. Why not outbuildings? Or pool? Or garden of X-size e.g. >0.5 acre? Or annex? Or parking spaces? Or double glazing? Or energy rating? etc etc. The list is almost endless - all it would take is a tick box on the listing form for the Estate agent end, and then a corresponding tick box when uploading to a website. And don't get me started on wide angle lenses and photos that bear no relation to reality when you view a property in person. Google maps and streetview is useful but sheesh, it is a faff even when you know an area, let alone moving to a new area
 
In that case my perfect AI would get me from London to Edinburgh with no roadworks.😀
Pipe dream, my dear. I can’t even drive 30 miles from the Borders to the New Town without encountering at least three sets or roadworks (count last Saturday). Add to that skirting the LEZ and (to be fair a one off a few weeks ago) road closures for Swifties...
 
This! It constantly annoys me that the search engines on rightmove, zoopla etc are so rubbish. You can search by number of bedrooms and price and that is about it. Why not outbuildings? Or pool? Or garden of X-size e.g. >0.5 acre? Or annex? Or parking spaces? Or double glazing? Or energy rating? etc etc. The list is almost endless - all it would take is a tick box on the listing form for the Estate agent end, and then a corresponding tick box when uploading to a website. And don't get me started on wide angle lenses and photos that bear no relation to reality when you view a property in person. Google maps and streetview is useful but sheesh, it is a faff even when you know an area, let alone moving to a new area
You read my mind. Another good idea would be mandatory photographs of the view from each side of the house.
 
This! It constantly annoys me that the search engines on rightmove, zoopla etc are so rubbish. You can search by number of bedrooms and price and that is about it. Why not outbuildings? Or pool? Or garden of X-size e.g. >0.5 acre? Or annex? Or parking spaces? Or double glazing? Or energy rating? etc etc. The list is almost endless - all it would take is a tick box on the listing form for the Estate agent end, and then a corresponding tick box when uploading to a website. And don't get me started on wide angle lenses and photos that bear no relation to reality when you view a property in person. Google maps and streetview is useful but sheesh, it is a faff even when you know an area, let alone moving to a new area
That annoys me too (last I checked rightmove couldn't filter on whether properties had a double garage).

Similarly accommodation websites (booking / airbnb etc). All I really want is a filter to say "are the beds free of footboards", which would be quite easy to specify. Instead I have to flick through loads of photos of the surrounding area (I don't want to see the surrounding area, I want to see the accommodation) to find the photos of the beds to see whether I'll actually fit in them and be able to sleep. Then you find they've taken the photo of the bed from such an angle that you can only see the top half so you can't tell whether there's a footboard or not.
 
Is it something to do with how the estate agent industry describes how the number of bedrooms increases their valuation of the property and increases their percentage fee? I live in a 1960's chalet bungalow. There are effectively two double bedrooms within the roof inverted vee. But the downstairs dining room and study, they call bedrooms to describe it as a 4 bedroom house, and therefore increase the valuation and their fee, while all the time it really is a two double bedroom house.
 
Ah, estate agent's 'speak'. I hadn't realised that we had so many 'sought after villages' in this country.
 
Ah, estate agent's 'speak'. I hadn't realised that we had so many 'sought after villages' in this country.
There's a new build estate being made in Tetbury at the moment that has a big banner on it saying that they are "zero carbon" homes. One can only assume that there is nothing plastic in any of the houses, nor any fabric or any of the other myriad things that would normally contain carbon. :mad:

(and yes, I know that they probably mean that they've paid someone to offset their carbon dioxide emissions, but that doesn't seem to mean quite the same as "zero carbon" to me)
 
Brewdog, who make my favourite stout, claim to be carbon negative.
I wonder how many pints I'll need to drink to offset my upcoming flight to Seattle?
 
Last I checked, there was carbon in ethanol (C₂H₅OH), so presumably they've found a way to make beer that removes alcohol from your system!
I think it's the production/recycling system they're talking about. Shame - it would be handy to have a few cans of alcohol removal beer in the fridge, just for emergencies.
 
Is it something to do with how the estate agent industry describes how the number of bedrooms increases their valuation of the property and increases their percentage fee? I live in a 1960's chalet bungalow. There are effectively two double bedrooms within the roof inverted vee. But the downstairs dining room and study, they call bedrooms to describe it as a 4 bedroom house, and therefore increase the valuation and their fee, while all the time it really is a two double bedroom house.
If your valuer is at all competent, and the rooms are capable of either use it shouldn’t make any difference to value. Unless you are valuing identical units (and even then…) a rate per m2 should be at least referenced. So, the actual use of a room is immaterial unless it is incapable of use for a particular purpose.

However (and this is a big however) most punters are incapable of seeing a property in anything other than its existing state. And you will probably attract more views on websites if you maximise the number of bedrooms. But, and I stress again, this should not affect value. I should know, I was involved in the writing of the RICS valuation guide notes.

I only ever dabbled in residential agency in the first two years of my career. A very small part of my first partnership – flats in Bloomsbury. God knows why we did it, it didn’t bring in much money. But it did provide an insight into just how venal, mendacious, unreliable and shifty most purchasers and vendors are. Which is why I switched to purely commercial work. And preferably corporate, although I have known some decent private investors. Don’t get out of bed for less than an Evangelista.

And that is why people employ estate agents (and there are some shockers out there, I grant you). You get them to do the stuff you find distasteful. A necessary evil, like politicians, pox doctors’ clerks and bookies’ runners.

And breathe. Sorry.
 
I think it's the production/recycling system they're talking about. Shame - it would be handy to have a few cans of alcohol removal beer in the fridge, just for emergencies.
Yes, I'm sure they're talking about Carbon Dioxide emissions, it just bugs me a little when they describe things as zero carbon when they mean "offset" carbon dioxide.
 
As I understand it the AI algorithms that provide "factual" answers to simple questions learn from scouring the web. Initially, the sources were therefore human. Now that more and more AI generated material is published will not AI increasing be sourcing info from other AI thus diluting the credibility of the source ...?
 
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