Low Angle Jack Planes; lateral adjustment

[Dr.Al]

I've just been sh**pening some of the planes I've picked up recently at junk shops & while I was at it, I sh**pened my Quangsheng LA jack plane.

I find it an awkward thing to sh**pen, but it's nothing to do
do with getting an edge: it's getting the blade/iron aligned once it is back in the plane. Is there a knack to the norris adjusters that I'm missing? It seems much, much more difficult to use than the Bailey lateral adjustment lever.

I've tried loosening (and not loosening) the lever cap (if that's what it's called on an LA jack), but it still seems very difficult to nudge the blade over by small enough increments to be able to get it cutting square. Today I think it took me 3 times as long to get the blade set right in the body as it did to sh**pen it!

On my LA block plane, the blade sticks out the back of the body a bit so I just tap it with a hammer and that works fine, but there's limited access to anything on the LA jack plane.

I've even wondered about drilling & tapping some holes in the side of the plane for some nudgey grub screws, but it feels like there must be a simpler option.

What am I missing?!

 

[AndyT]

I don't use mine very often, but without going down to the unheated workshop to check, I think you have two options.

1 Slacken the screw on the lever cap a tiny bit, so that the iron can just move. Tilt the top of the depth adjuster the opposite way to how you want the iron to pivot. Tighten the screw again and check.
(One reason why the Bailey design is so good is that the cam-action lever cap can be set to allow adjustment on the fly. In my limited experience, planes with a screw knob need to be slackened to adjust then tightened afterwards.)

2 Use a hammer with a long narrow pien (eg a Warrington) to get into the tight space.

 

[Woodbloke]

I've just been sh**pening some of the planes I've picked up recently at junk shops & while I was at it, I sh**pened my Quangsheng LA jack plane.

I find it an awkward thing to sh**pen, but it's nothing to do
do with getting an edge: it's getting the blade/iron aligned once it is back in the plane. Is there a knack to the norris adjusters that I'm missing? It seems much, much more difficult to use than the Bailey lateral adjustment lever.

I've tried loosening (and not loosening) the lever cap (if that's what it's called on an LA jack), but it still seems very difficult to nudge the blade over by small enough increments to be able to get it cutting square. Today I think it took me 3 times as long to get the blade set right in the body as it did to sh**pen it!

On my LA block plane, the blade sticks out the back of the body a bit so I just tap it with a hammer and that works fine, but there's limited access to anything on the LA jack plane.

I've even wondered about drilling & tapping some holes in the side of the plane for some nudgey grub screws, but it feels like there must be a simpler option.

What am I missing?!

I've used LA planes exclusively for well over a decade now and have never had a problem with the the Norris style adjuster. It's essential to slacken off the cap iron by a turn as this then makes it much easier to move the blade sideways a smidge and also to set the doc. What really makes a huge difference is to add a few drops of 3-in-1 oil to both the adjustment screws and the recess that the adjuster sits in. Provided everything is well lubed there shouldn't be any sort of problem with making adjustments - Rob

 

[Dr.Al]

I've just been sh**pening some of the planes I've picked up recently at junk shops & while I was at it, I sh**pened my Quangsheng LA jack plane.

I find it an awkward thing to sh**pen, but it's nothing to do
do with getting an edge: it's getting the blade/iron aligned once it is back in the plane. Is there a knack to the norris adjusters that I'm missing? It seems much, much more difficult to use than the Bailey lateral adjustment lever.

I've tried loosening (and not loosening) the lever cap (if that's what it's called on an LA jack), but it still seems very difficult to nudge the blade over by small enough increments to be able to get it cutting square. Today I think it took me 3 times as long to get the blade set right in the body as it did to sh**pen it!

On my LA block plane, the blade sticks out the back of the body a bit so I just tap it with a hammer and that works fine, but there's limited access to anything on the LA jack plane.

I've even wondered about drilling & tapping some holes in the side of the plane for some nudgey grub screws, but it feels like there must be a simpler option.

What am I missing?!

I've used LA planes exclusively for well over a decade now and have never had a problem with the the Norris style adjuster. It's essential to slacken off the cap iron by a turn as this then makes it much easier to move the blade sideways a smidge and also to set the doc. What really makes a huge difference is to add a few drops of 3-in-1 oil to both the adjustment screws and the recess that the adjuster sits in. Provided everything is well lubed there shouldn't be any sort of problem with making adjustments - Rob

Hmmm... I always slacken the lever cap screw off (it's next to impossible to adjust otherwise). I've always kept everything oiled, so I don't think the issue is a lack of lubrication (I also oil the surface that the iron sits on).

Is yours the Veritas or the Quangsheng (or something else)? I'm wondering if it's something to do with the finish on the surface on which the iron sits being a bit rough or something like that and it might be better on the Veritas?

 

[Woodbloke]

Is yours the Veritas or the Quangsheng (or something else)? I'm wondering if it's something to do with the finish on the surface on which the iron sits being a bit rough or something like that and it might be better on the Veritas?

All mine are Veritas, but I have a Clifton block plane and a Norris A1 panel plane, all with the 'Norris' style adjuster. The QS planes are pretty good by all accounts so I'd be very surprised if there were any machining issues with them - Rob

 

[Andy Kev.]

I've even wondered about drilling & tapping some holes in the side of the plane for some nudgey grub screws, but it feels like there must be a simpler option.

I think you hit it there. The Veritas LAJ has the screws and they are very good.

My routine is to maximally loosen the cap thingy, put the blade in straight and square (to the eye), tighten the cap screw with literally the tips of my fingers on the screwdriver so that it is finger tip tight, then set the grip of the cap thingy so that the blade is held in place. Then just do the usual thing of looking down the sole in good light to get the set up just right.

 

[Woodbloke]

I've even wondered about drilling & tapping some holes in the side of the plane for some nudgey grub screws, but it feels like there must be a simpler option.

I think you hit it there. The Veritas LAJ has the screws and they are very good.

My routine is to maximally loosen the cap thingy, put the blade in straight and square (to the eye), tighten the cap screw with literally the tips of my fingers on the screwdriver so that it is finger tip tight, then set the grip of the cap thingy so that the blade is held in place. Then just do the usual thing of looking down the sole in good light to get the set up just right.

Yebut the QS and LN versions don't have the nudgey set screws. They're really only there to create a guide for the blade not to adjust it. I found the Veritas 'book of words' for the Bevel-Up Smoother and it do sayeth:



...about half way down the main paragraph - Rob

 

[Dr.Al]

I've even wondered about drilling & tapping some holes in the side of the plane for some nudgey grub screws, but it feels like there must be a simpler option.

I think you hit it there. The Veritas LAJ has the screws and they are very good.

My routine is to maximally loosen the cap thingy, put the blade in straight and square (to the eye), tighten the cap screw with literally the tips of my fingers on the screwdriver so that it is finger tip tight, then set the grip of the cap thingy so that the blade is held in place. Then just do the usual thing of looking down the sole in good light to get the set up just right.

Yebut the QS and LN versions don't have the nudgey set screws. They're really only there to create a guide for the blade not to adjust it. I found the Veritas 'book of words' for the Bevel-Up Smoother and it do sayeth:



...about half way down the main paragraph - Rob

True, but I'm finding it very hard to adjust without the screws, so I need to do something. I always sh**pen the blade with a honing guide, so the edge should be square. Some grub screws might make the whole process very quick and easy, so I'm tempted to try it. I'll ponder a bit more before making holes in the plane though!

 

[Andy Kev.]

I've even wondered about drilling & tapping some holes in the side of the plane for some nudgey grub screws, but it feels like there must be a simpler option.

I think you hit it there. The Veritas LAJ has the screws and they are very good.

My routine is to maximally loosen the cap thingy, put the blade in straight and square (to the eye), tighten the cap screw with literally the tips of my fingers on the screwdriver so that it is finger tip tight, then set the grip of the cap thingy so that the blade is held in place. Then just do the usual thing of looking down the sole in good light to get the set up just right.

Yebut the QS and LN versions don't have the nudgey set screws. They're really only there to create a guide for the blade not to adjust it. I found the Veritas 'book of words' for the Bevel-Up Smoother and it do sayeth:



...about half way down the main paragraph - Rob

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that the screws were there for anything other than that purpose and of course by adjusting the amount they project, you regulate the influence they have on the position of the blade. I keep them just a bit off the blade because I like to be able to put on a bit of lateral skew to plane out height differences on edges. However, the screws do set the limit to the amount of skew available.Obviously you can also use them to form a fairly tight channel for the blade.

All that said, they do sound like the most obvious fix to Dr Al's problems.

 

[Pete Maddex]

I made a high angle smoother with a LV Noris adjuster and it’s very sensitive to adjust it takes a lot of messing to get it set right.

Pete

 

[Woodbloke]

I made a high angle smoother with a LV Noris adjuster and it’s very sensitive to adjust it takes a lot of messing to get it set right.

Pete

They do take some faffing to set up but I've been using LA planes for donkey's years and it's second nature now so probably easier for me than my BD No4 - Rob

 

[AndyT]

Here's a photo of mine, which is the WH QS version.

If you get no joy with fingertip adjustments, a little "pin hammer" is what you need. I find that there is just enough room to hit the shoulders of the iron and make a tiny correction without touching the screw.

 

[Woodbloke]

Here's a photo of mine, which is the WH QS version.

If you get no joy with fingertip adjustments, a little "pin hammer" is what you need. I find that there is just enough room to hit the shoulders of the iron and make a tiny correction without touching the screw.

That's exactly how I make any small corrections on the Cliffi block plane, but again, it's important to stress that the pressure on the iron must be relieved (by slackening off the 'cap iron') before the application of the tapometer - Rob

 

[Dr.Al]

Here's a photo of mine, which is the WH QS version.

If you get no joy with fingertip adjustments, a little "pin hammer" is what you need. I find that there is just enough room to hit the shoulders of the iron and make a tiny correction without touching the screw.

That's exactly how I make any small corrections on the Cliffi block plane, but again, it's important to stress that the pressure on the iron must be relieved (by slackening off the 'cap iron') before the application of the tapometer - Rob

As I've already said, I always slacken off the lever cap screw before trying to adjust it.

 

[Lurker]

I think it’s your engineering mind overruling the idea of hitting a finely made lump of metal.
If you were to use woodies you would soon get the hang of tappity tapping to get them bang on including the blade protrusion.
In comparison your your adjustment is fairly simple.
Have you got a purpose made small brass adjustment hammer ?

 

[AndyT]

Well, perhaps we have found a difference in practice that's worth exploring.
When I tried out lateral adjustment just now, I took the plane as it was when I last used it, without slackening the screw. I didn't try wiggling the adjuster side to side - I was sure that wouldn't work.

I just used gentle taps as shown. There was a discernible movement of the angle of the edge.

Maybe Rob tightens his down more than I do. I'd call it reasonably tight but not as tight as I could manage. I certainly didn't use pliers or similar.

If you slacken and retighten the screw, I think there's an extra chance for something to shift again.

(I've seen problems on other planes, when the end of the screw was not well shaped, and the last tightening gave the iron a little shove sideways. Worth checking that's not happening, though it's not been a problem on my plane. )

So I suggest you try a hammer, unless you've tightened everything up too solid.

 

[Dr.Al]

I think it’s your engineering mind overruling the idea of hitting a finely made lump of metal.

I've got nothing against hitting things with hammers - a lot of the most precise alignment for machining is done with hammers. I hadn't considered it mainly because at a glance it looked impractical. Having seen Andy's photo I can see that it should be do-able with a pin hammer, although it feels like a shame that a hammer is needed to adjust a plane that (at least nominally) has a lateral adjustment facility.

I've got a few wooden planes and find the hammer works well for adjusting those, but of course the back of the blade is much more accessible on wooden planes than it is in my LA plane.

Part of the reason I'd rather get it tuned in such a way that the hammer isn't needed is that it'll be a pain to get the hammer to the back of the blade (even with a pin hammer) without removing my "customisation", which is (currently) a permanent feature of that plane.

It's got plenty of space to get fingers around it and nudge it (and before anyone says it: removing the shooting handle doesn't make any difference to how hard I find it to align the blade with the Norris adjuster), but it doesn't allow hammer access on the left-hand side, even with a pin hammer. I realise that's a problem of my own making (quite literally :lol: ). Before Andy posted his picture, it hadn't even occurred to me that it would be possible to get a hammer in there even with the handle removed.

I'll definitely check whether anything's moving as I tighten the screw - at the moment I'll typically loosen and tighten it about 20 times in the process of trying to get the b****y iron aligned square, so it'd be especially irritating if it was moving every time I tightened it!

 

[AndyT]

Ah, I'd not thought about that little complication... I reckon that great mass of metal must be exerting its own gravitational field, pulling the iron off to one side...

 

[Dr.Al]

Ah, I'd not thought about that little complication... I reckon that great mass of metal must be exerting its own gravitational field, pulling the iron off to one side...

:text-lol:

 

[Woodbloke]

Maybe Rob tightens his down more than I do. I'd call it reasonably tight but not as tight as I could manage. I certainly didn't use pliers or similar.

If you slacken and retighten the screw, I think there's an extra chance for something to shift again.

So I suggest you try a hammer, unless you've tightened everything up too solid.

It's only a smidge though Andy; maybe a quarter or third of a turn just to ease the pressure without anything shifting, but you're right, a little tappage with a suitable maul also works - Rob

Edit- this one might work quite nicely: https://www.holteyplanes.com/settingHammer.html

 

[9fingers]

See how much these strange hand devices can lead to?
I just know I'm right not to have anything to do with these things!
:lol:
Bob

 

[Woodbloke]

I just know I'm right not to have anything to do with these things!
:lol:
Bob

But you do Bob...if memory serves you've got a No.4 to keep the workshop door ajar in the hot weather! :lol: - Rob

 

[AndyT]

Edit- this one might work quite nicely: https://www.holteyplanes.com/settingHammer.html

Now Rob, I know you're joking (well, I think I know that but I have been known to be wrong sometimes ) but I do feel the need to point out, if only to stop the good Doctor from being led astray, and spending how ever many hundreds of pounds one of those costs, that there isn't room to use it!

Whereas my humble pin hammer, which I can barely remember not owning, is of negligible financial worth but is priceless as it was my first real hammer and because I re-handled it when I was still a fairly small child, over 50 years ago. And it works for this job!

 

[9fingers]

I just know I'm right not to have anything to do with these things!
:lol:
Bob

But you do Bob...if memory serves you've got a No.4 to keep the workshop door ajar in the hot weather! :lol: - Rob

About all they are good for to be honest. I used to use a small block plane for chamfers but easier to do on the table saw accurately or maybe a router. If the workshop had any windows then the old block plane could prop those open but it lies buried under sawdust somewhere. :lol:

Bob

 

[Woodbloke]

Whereas my humble pin hammer, which I can barely remember not owning, is of negligible financial worth but is priceless as it was my first real hammer

Same here; I've had an identical one since the early 70's and is probably one of first tools I bought. For small, delicate taps in small places they're ideal. Why folk need to spend an arm and a leg on fancy (notwithstanding KH's hammer :lol: ) is beyond me. I do though, have a nice little Mujingfang plane hammer which was the princely sum of about £15 some years ago - Rob

 

[Lurker]

That hotley one is bluddy ugly.
I thought everyone had made their own.

I have just remembered that we had a discussion about his hammer last year

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5912&hilit=Hammer

 

[Dr.Al]

I've been pondering this for a while and I decided to bite the bullet and have a go at adding some grub screws. I figured that the worst case result is that there are some extra holes in the side of the plane that I don't use. Well, actually the worst case is that I drill the holes in completely the wrong place and then snap a tap in half in one of the holes, but let's not think too hard about that for now!

In case anyone's interested, this is what I did...

I started by taking the plane apart, including completely removing the sliding nose piece to give a bit more clearance around the opening. I used the lever cap to work out how what the thickest material I could slide through the hole and that turned out to be a bit over 6 mm.

With that information in hand, a small table clamp from my rotary table and an M5 cap screw (metric fasteners being one of the benefits of a Chinese plane rather than an American or Canadian one), I could clamp a 6 mm parallel to the sliding face of the plane:



With the plane on its side and clamped loosely onto the bed (with some aluminium scraps between the clamps and the body to protect it), I could use a dial gauge and a soft-jawed hammer to clock it square to the X axis of the lathe:



The kant-twist clamp in that picture is there to make sure the parallel doesn't deflect when the dial indicator presses lightly against it.

After clocking it parallel, tightening the clamps and then checking again for parallel, I could use an edge finder to zero the Y axis of the milling machine at the base of the plane's bed. The kant-twist clamp was getting in the way a bit here, so I got rid of it and just used a wooden wedge:



To get the X axis zero position, I used another parallel clamped to the first one and pushed up against the bed opening.



I used a small 1-2-3 style block (10-20-40 mm) to give a flat surface on the other side to clamp against:



Then it was just a case of taking a very deep breath and attacking it with a spotting drill and then a 3.3 mm drill bit:



I then tapped the holes M4. I didn't have the bottle to tap under power for such a small hole in something that I really didn't want to wreck, so I just put the tap in the chuck and turned the spindle by hand:



Once I'd repeated all of the above on the other side of the plane body, I was somewhat relieved (understatement of the year...) to see that the holes had come out in the right place:



... and here they are with some M4×4 mm grub screws fitted:



In my opinion that makes it even better than the Veritas version as I've no doubt the Veritas one uses daft American screws and needs an imperial Allen key to adjust. Mine uses a civilised 2 mm Allen key .

It'll be a while before I know how much difference this makes and whether it helps at all. However, the first time I set it up (using the grub screws to nudge the iron around rather than bothering with the Norris adjuster), I reckon it took me about the same amount of time (or maybe a little less) to get it aligned than it would have done before.

I then took the blade out, fitted my shooting handle and refitted the blade and it only took a few seconds to get it aligned, so I was very happy with that. Time will tell how consistent / easy it is through multiple sharpenings etc. I might add a bit of threadlock to the grub screws at some point as well if I think it needs it.

 

[Dr.Al]

Having just squandered on a Veritas plane, I thought I'd come back and update this thread.

Here's the new one next to its Quangsheng big brother:



You can see the blade-front centring grub screw on the side of the Veritas and the two added-by-me grub screws on the side of the Quangsheng here:



I took the Veritas out to the garage, gave it a very quick sharpen and tried setting it up. It's much, much easier to move the blade's lateral alignment on the Veritas that it was on the unmodified Quangsheng. Everything just feels smoother and its far easier to move it in small steps. I guess you get what you pay for. Having said that, it still took me longer to adjust than it now takes on the modified Quangsheng (albeit not by much), so I feel like the modifications were worth it. Certainly not enough of a difference that I'd be at all tempted to modify the Veritas though.

The slidey-in-out front bit works better on the Veritas too.

I might have a closer look at the various surface finishes on the Quangsheng at some point but there's no great rush as I've found it quite quick & easy to set up with the modification done.

 

[Doug]

It's much, much easier to move the blade's lateral alignment on the Veritas that it was on the unmodified Quangsheng.

That’s interesting :eusa-think: I’ve never had any problems with lateral adjustment on my low angle planes with Norris adjusters & wondered why folks made such a fuss about how difficult they are to use but as my planes are all Veritas that may well have answered my confusion.

 

[Woodbloke]

It's much, much easier to move the blade's lateral alignment on the Veritas that it was on the unmodified Quangsheng.

That’s interesting :eusa-think: I’ve never had any problems with lateral adjustment on my low angle planes with Norris adjusters & wondered why folks made such a fuss about how difficult they are to use but as my planes are all Veritas that may well have answered my confusion.

Same here Doug; all my 'users' are Veritas LA planes and from day one, I've never had any issues with the lateral adjusters or the Norris mechanism. The only thing I do is to clean them out from time to time and give the threads and pivot points a drop of 3-in-1 oil - Rob

 

[Alf]

Having just squandered on a Veritas plane...

I see no squandering. I see investment.

The slidey-in-out front bit...

Stop blinding me with all these technical terms! :lol:

 

[MrH]

I don't have much to add aside from having a secondhand Veritas LAJ.
The weight of the tool is nice and it's well balanced.
On the flip side, the handle is crude and I miss not having adjustment at my fingertips. Haven't quite decided if I like it.

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