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switch

T

the bear

Nordic Pine
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I have a couple of workshop air filters. They are on 13 amp plugs but there is no separate switch, they have to be turned on and off at the wall socket. Where I am about to instal them the wall socket will be awkward to lean over to all the time. So I'd like to wire a switch into the power cable. The switch will need to be in a box, not exposed at the back. Does anything like this exist that is just a switch rather than an NVR? Like this:

https://www.axminstertools.com/kedu-kjd ... box-600072 but as just a switch

NVR seems overkill as it doesn't matter if it turns back on after a power failure. Fall back will be a something like this:

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/C ... gJnsvD_BwE

But I would prefer push buttons rather a rocker (or rotary) hence the question.

Many thanks

Mark
 
The single switch will work fine, provided you confirm that the combined current draw of both machines working at the same time is less than 20 amps. It most likely is, but check.
But if the wire run is out of sight, clearly label that switch as to what it controls.

This is assuming youre working alone in your own workshop, if there are other people or employees, then using a 20 amp switch on a non dedicated circuit might be an electrical health and safety issue.
 
Bob
I may have misled you with the rocker switch I linked to. It was purely an example of what type I will use if there is nothing else. They don’t need 20amp, nothing like it, these are fairly lightweight and will have a switch (and plug/socket) each.
But what I’m after is a switch (more accurately 2 switches) with separate on and off buttons
Hopefully that’s clearer

Mark
 
Sorry, I thought you wanted them on the same switch. The reason I say 20 amps is that those single switches are rated for 20 amps, and of course you should never exceed the rating of the switch.
Although NVR switches are good safety devices, I dont see the need in this application.

How far away are the filters? I dont see a problem if you use a multi extension cord with each socket switched. As long as it isnt draped over the floor as a trip hazard.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SKT-13A-Traili ... 2975881534
 
Why don't you use remote control plug in switch sockets? Heavy duty versions will take 13 amp and 3000w.

Eg https://www.amazon.co.uk/DEWENWILS-Cont ... C76&sr=8-7

I use these for all sorts of things. The heavy duty ones are better as they are suitable for appliances and not just lighting. You can also get them Alexa (or whatever your preference) voice controlled and they work well.

You can control appliances individually or all together.
 
AJB Temple":1li1mts9 said:
Why don't you use remote control plug in switch sockets? Heavy duty versions will take 13 amp and 3000w.

Eg https://www.amazon.co.uk/DEWENWILS-Cont ... C76&sr=8-7

I use these for all sorts of things. The heavy duty ones are better as they are suitable for appliances and not just lighting. You can also get them Alexa (or whatever your preference) voice controlled and they work well.

You can control appliances individually or all together.
Click to expand...


NOOOO! There is a history of these switching on by themselves and in an unattended workshop can be a fire risk.
There is a Peter millard video on the problems he had.
Bob
 
Interesting Bob. I can't find much unbiased history on them failing or causing fires. I found a vid of Peter Millard recommending them for starting his vacuum, but that was quite old.

I've used them extensively for a few years to operate lights or to turn on the Festool vac in my temporary workshop. I only ever programme them for off and on (ie I don't use the differentiated numbers), and I am using a decent brand. Never had the slightest inkling of a failure - but I am a sample of one.

Do you have any links?
 
I would have suggested remote wireless sockets like those too.

I have some that came from maplins years ago. The remote has been repaired a few times but the sockets are all working fine. I'd buy another set if they packed up. Never had anything turn on or off unexpectedly.
 
I have remote control switches like that in my workshop for the dust collector and air cleaners. I have found that the buttons on the remote wear out, I have been through a few sets.
 
You might be fine with these or you might be unlucky. I have some toggle ones in the house and they get out of sync about once a year but are on non critical loads like lighting and are easily reset.

I would only use them where I can immediately see that the device has turned on/off and so would detect false alarms.
The problem with this class of comms link is that they do not use a challenge and response system as that needs a Tx and Rx at both ends.
Simple one way links have no protection for electronic noise triggering.

In my book if these are used in a workshop environment then power to all but essential loads must be switched off when leaving the shop. My power shut off is activated by the door lock.

Bob
 
Mine is similar Bob. I feel safe with these because I have a proper rotary shut off switch that kills all workshop power apart from the cameras and alarms.
 
AJB Temple":2qt5akz5 said:
Interesting Bob. I can't find much unbiased history on them failing or causing fires. I found a vid of Peter Millard recommending them for starting his vacuum, but that was quite old.

..
Click to expand...

I have exactly the same model as Peter Millard. That too switches on by itself. Avoid this model. Others might be OK
 
Thanks all

I had considered the remote switch but again considered it overkill since I can place a switch in a convenient place to reach and have no remote to lose or have dead batteries. Wasn't aware of the fire risk.

57, yes thats what I was looking for and can now see that I can buy 2 for £12. Despite looking on amazon myself I have no idea how I missed these. Thank you

Mark
 
AJB Temple":150tplwt said:
Interesting Bob. I can't find much unbiased history on them failing or causing fires. I found a vid of Peter Millard recommending them for starting his vacuum, but that was quite old.

I've used them extensively for a few years to operate lights or to turn on the Festool vac in my temporary workshop. I only ever programme them for off and on (ie I don't use the differentiated numbers), and I am using a decent brand. Never had the slightest inkling of a failure - but I am a sample of one.

Do you have any links?
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in links to evidence of failures of these too.

I use several of them: three in the lounge controlling lights/TV, one connected to an oil-filled radiator in the garage so I can turn the heating on remotely and one with the vacuum cleaner plugged in that I use with my home-made cordless power tool vacuum cleaner starter (note to self: must come up with a shorter name for that thing!).

I tend to turn off the vacuum cleaner at it's own switch when I'm leaving the garage, but the radiator one stays plugged in all the time and has done for about 10 years now I think. It's thermostatically controlled, so probably not the end of the world (apart from expense) if it turned on of its own accord, but I'd certainly rather it didn't! As far as I know it has never happened.

It'd be interesting to know if any confirmed failures were explained (i.e. was it down to an inherent fault or did a next-door neighbour happen to have the same remote control!).
 
Dr.Al":3r1doxg3 said:
AJB Temple":3r1doxg3 said:
Interesting Bob. I can't find much unbiased history on them failing or causing fires. I found a vid of Peter Millard recommending them for starting his vacuum, but that was quite old.

I've used them extensively for a few years to operate lights or to turn on the Festool vac in my temporary workshop. I only ever programme them for off and on (ie I don't use the differentiated numbers), and I am using a decent brand. Never had the slightest inkling of a failure - but I am a sample of one.

Do you have any links?
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in links to evidence of failures of these too.

I use several of them: three in the lounge controlling lights/TV, one connected to an oil-filled radiator in the garage so I can turn the heating on remotely and one with the vacuum cleaner plugged in that I use with my home-made cordless power tool vacuum cleaner starter (note to self: must come up with a shorter name for that thing!).

I tend to turn off the vacuum cleaner at it's own switch when I'm leaving the garage, but the radiator one stays plugged in all the time and has done for about 10 years now I think. It's thermostatically controlled, so probably not the end of the world (apart from expense) if it turned on of its own accord, but I'd certainly rather it didn't! As far as I know it has never happened.

It'd be interesting to know if any confirmed failures were explained (i.e. was it down to an inherent fault or did a next-door neighbour happen to have the same remote control!).
Click to expand...

It’s down to the probability of a burst of rfi/ noise matching the switching code. The ones that I have only use 32 bits and there is no return confirmation link.
Bob
 
9fingers":28u9kfyl said:
Dr.Al":28u9kfyl said:
AJB Temple":28u9kfyl said:
Interesting Bob. I can't find much unbiased history on them failing or causing fires. I found a vid of Peter Millard recommending them for starting his vacuum, but that was quite old.

I've used them extensively for a few years to operate lights or to turn on the Festool vac in my temporary workshop. I only ever programme them for off and on (ie I don't use the differentiated numbers), and I am using a decent brand. Never had the slightest inkling of a failure - but I am a sample of one.

Do you have any links?
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in links to evidence of failures of these too.

I use several of them: three in the lounge controlling lights/TV, one connected to an oil-filled radiator in the garage so I can turn the heating on remotely and one with the vacuum cleaner plugged in that I use with my home-made cordless power tool vacuum cleaner starter (note to self: must come up with a shorter name for that thing!).

I tend to turn off the vacuum cleaner at it's own switch when I'm leaving the garage, but the radiator one stays plugged in all the time and has done for about 10 years now I think. It's thermostatically controlled, so probably not the end of the world (apart from expense) if it turned on of its own accord, but I'd certainly rather it didn't! As far as I know it has never happened.

It'd be interesting to know if any confirmed failures were explained (i.e. was it down to an inherent fault or did a next-door neighbour happen to have the same remote control!).
Click to expand...

It’s down to the probability of a burst of rfi/ noise matching the switching code. The ones that I have only use 32 bits and there is no return confirmation link.
Bob
Click to expand...

Every one I've tested used 25 "bits" with each bit represented by a high pulse and a low pulse of 25% or 75% duty cycle. They're all 433 MHz but are fairly fussy on bit frequency (with, for example, Energenie switches not accepting the bit frequency from Dewenwils remote controls). The chances of RFI producing the right demodulated pattern to trigger a switch must be absolutely tiny. It was hard enough getting the pattern right when I was trying to reproduce it for my vacuum starter.
 
Dr.Al":32vjsp7d said:
......
..... The chances of RFI producing the right demodulated pattern to trigger a switch must be absolutely tiny. ...
Click to expand...

I acknowledge your expertise in this area but, surely, the same model having the same fault with two people suggests to me that perhaps there could be some inherent design faults in some of these switches that make them more susceptible ?
 
RogerS":20d4zfjy said:
Dr.Al":20d4zfjy said:
......
..... The chances of RFI producing the right demodulated pattern to trigger a switch must be absolutely tiny. ...
Click to expand...

I acknowledge your expertise in this area but, surely, the same model having the same fault with two people suggests to me that perhaps there could be some inherent design faults in some of these switches that make them more susceptible ?
Click to expand...

Of course it's possible. I've not seen any details of what actually happened, so there's no way I can know.
I don't know whether the two people you refer to actually confirmed that it was a real RFI problem or whether they left the remote control somewhere where something else could fall on the button or whether their next door neighbour had the same remote control, or whether they'd done something daft like put the remote socket next to a microwave etc etc. If it is an RFI problem, it's much more likely that it's nothing to do with RFI creating the correct demodulated pattern: RFI is more likely to cause some poorly-designed software in a microcontroller to get into a funny state that causes it to switch the relay. The part of @9fingers' post I was questioning was whether RFI could create the correct switching pattern.

There's an old EMC testing trick that I might try on one of mine later. Get a piezo type cooker starter that's run out of gas. Shove one end of a bit of thick wire into the end of the cooker starter and form a big loop (maybe 50 mm in diameter or something like that) with the wire with the loose end of the wire very close but not touching the outside metal housing. Press the button and a tiny spark will jump from the end of the wire to the housing. Hold it near some electronics and press the button: if the device in question survives that, it'll survive most other things...

Not a very scientific test, but it's quite effective.
 
The two people in question were Peter Millard (who posted the Youtube video) in his house and me. For me, definitely none of the situations you're suggesting. Not unless the sheep have managed to get hold of a remote :lol:
 
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