The Bike Workshop

[cadman_4]

Hi All

I've managed to get a little spare time inbetween work & finishing off our kitchen refurb. I have discussed my outline plans with er-in-doors and agreed that I can build a motorcycle workshop at the end of the garden

So the plan is to move an existing summerhouse to a new location, then move a small shed at the end of the garden onto the old summerhouse base leaving the end of the garden free.

Looking at the local council website I can build a workshop up to 30sqm and 4m high if it is greater than 2m from the boundary. My "plot" is 12m wide and at the end of a 33m garden so i plan to be 2m away from the back boundary too.

That leaves me with a space of 7m wide x 4m deep. Purfect.

I have discussed borrowing a small Bobcat type digger from a friend to level out the slope but I'm not sure on how to construct the base. I was considering concrete slab as per Mike's build, however the concrete mixer would park on the roadside which is circa 45 - 50m away from the proposed workshop location.

An alternative thought was that I could make the slab up in smaller sections with a small mixer and then lay a thinner screed over the top.

Other than that I am looking at beam & block or raised wooden floor

Any thoughts greatly appreciated

John

 

[Mike G]

Just a quick note about the sizes you give. The 30 square metre thing is to be free of Building Control (the people who control how you build), and is based on internal floor area. The height thing is about your Permitted Development rights (ie building you can build without Planning Consent), so is a Planning matter (the people who control what and where you can build). You are probably aware of the differences, but I thought I should make that clear for readers who weren't so aware.

 

[Tusses]

if you can get a bob cat , can you get a dumper truck ?
Our neighbour had a concrete truck on the main road and a dumper to move the mixed concrete round the back to the garage plot.
It was all done in no time.

 

[cadman_4]

Just a quick note about the sizes you give. The 30 square metre thing is to be free of Building Control (the people who control how you build), and is based on internal floor area. The height thing is about your Permitted Development rights (ie building you can build without Planning Consent), so is a Planning matter (the people who control what and where you can build). You are probably aware of the differences, but I thought I should make that clear for readers who weren't so aware.

Thanks Mike

Yes I get the differences. So I assume that I am correct in my plans so far?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cadman_4]

if you can get a bob cat , can you get a dumper truck ?
Our neighbour had a concrete truck on the main road and a dumper to move the mixed concrete round the back to the garage plot.
It was all done in no time.

Good idea. The digger is one of those narrow ones that you can fit down a footpath

I may be able to clear a small car width down to the back of the site if I take down the old garage first, but then I’m left with where to store that stuff in the short term

I’ll have to spend some time looking at dumper hire


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mike G]

Could you just take the back out of the garage and drive the dumper through it?

 

[cadman_4]

Yes possibly doable. I assume the concrete slab method would be best? What are your thoughts about doing it in sections?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mike G]

You could do it in sections, but I don't see what you would achieve, and you'd always have cracks (which could extend through the plinth). So, I would try to avoid doing it if at all possible.

 

[Tusses]

I've mixed (little cement mixer and barrow) and poured a 30m2 slab in one go before
you need to have everything near by ready and work hard for a few hours.
start one end , level as you go. as long as one pour doesn't set, the next pour should bond ok. and keep going.

The one I'm in at the mo , I did in sections (as I built the workshop before pouring the floor ! , and had half my kit in to shuffle around), which hasn't cracked - I didn't use shuttering inside for the sections, I let one pour spread at the edges and troweled the next pour to level the join - if that makes sense ? I did PVA the overlaps , but don't know how much difference that made. Had cars and vans in there no problem

in one go is best by far though if you can do it.

 

[cadman_4]

Well I started off the day phoning round for dumper costs. I thought I'd have a search online for local pumping companies to see if they would be able to pump over the 30m I had seen advertised. It seems most companies can pump up to 60m before they need special equipment.

The pump hire looks to be about £365 on top of the concrete and a much easier job for me as they do all the work and I would just need to tamp and level. Boom

Next stage is either learn sketchup over the winter or just use 2D AutoCAD as I use that day to day. I knocked this up in a couple of hours.

Do you guys start the drawings off like this or draw the individual beams & joists first and build up from there?

 

[Mike G]

Frankly I'm not sure this needs much of a drawing. A quick section would be all I'd do.

 

[cadman_4]

I spent last night reading through the other builds of which I think some have gone missing? Anyhow with my proposed 7 x 4m build I thought that isn’t too far off of Mikes build but I couldn’t see any reference to depth of hardcore below the concrete slab. My garden is about a 1 1/2 spade depth of top soil followed by a deep layer of red/brown hard clay. So do I need a hardcore layer or pour the slab on compacted soil?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mike G]

Clear down to the hard substrate (ie get rid of the topsoil), then build back up with hardcore until you are roughly 100mm below the finished ground level. Your 150mm of concrete will then be roughly 50mm above ground level.

 

[Malc2098]

Next stage is either learn sketchup over the winter or just use 2D AutoCAD as I use that day to day. I knocked this up in a couple of hours.

Do you guys start the drawings off like this or draw the individual beams & joists first and build up from there?

As a DIYer, I would stick to which application I was most familiar with, but if you would want to use Sketchup to model your design, I found that by drawing a plane of the horizontal size of the base allowed me to draw the foundation trenches and then individual bricks and joints, and the joists and flooring, to help me calculate the correct amounts of materials. Then I would draw a vertical plane for a long side and a short side to draw the timber framing/sheathing within it. Again, than helped me calculate the amount of timber required.

I enjoyed learning skecthup that way while waiting for the PP decision.

Hope that helps.

 

[cadman_4]

Thanks Malc

I think I've made up my mind to use 2D AutoCAD for working out material requirements as I'm familiar with it. I may use sketchup to make a 3D model once I've finalised the design.

After more musing last night while walking the dog I wondered if any one knows how to calculate the framing / support requirements for a block & tackle. I have an old setup in the garage which I've used to hold up the front of a bike while removing the forks. For that I just wedged a 4 x 2 each side of the bike under the 3 x 2 roof joist in the garage, if it's feasable I would like to have a beam spanning 4m that could potentially lift a 300kg motorbike off the floor, maybe a little too much to ask of a workshop made of 4 x 2 framing, but you never know.

And if you're only going to build it once you might as well have everything in

John

 

[Halo Jones]

And if you're only going to build it once you might as well have everything in

I'm starting to imagine Iron Man's workshop

 

[Mike G]

300kg is 150kg. on each end of the beam as a point load. That's approximately the weight of two adults.

So, provided you don't allow this point load to fall on a single-depth plate mid-span between two studs, then there isn't the slightest problem in 4x2 framing supporting it

 

[Malc2098]

Ever thought of one of these?

They start at as little as £130. Could be built in to the build cost.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cla...MIsdXurdaJ1wIVSDobCh2qDQ9PEAQYAiABEgKj2fD_BwE

 

[cadman_4]

Ever thought of one of these?

They start at as little as £130. Could be built in to the build cost.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cla...MIsdXurdaJ1wIVSDobCh2qDQ9PEAQYAiABEgKj2fD_BwE

I’ve already got one of those. Great bit of kit but on the bike I’m working on at the moment you need to have the engine on one of those and hoist the frame over the top and then lower it down to line up the mounting points. Nothing’s ever easy is it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Malc2098]

Nothing’s ever easy is it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Malc2098]

Bloomin' modern bikes!

My R50, has two long bolts through the lower engine and frame, so all you do is carry the engine between your legs, step over the frame, let go of one end and put that hand through the frame and grab the engine again, lower the engine onto the two lower tubes, then go outside, rub your hernia and swear a bit!!

:shock:

 

[cadman_4]

Bloomin' modern bikes!

My R50, has two long bolts through the lower engine and frame, so all you do is carry the engine between your legs, step over the frame, let go of one end and put that hand through the frame and grab the engine again, lower the engine onto the two lower tubes, then go outside, rub your hernia and swear a bit!!

:shock:

That’ll be the German engineering then...

Vorsprung Durch Technik [emoji965]



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Malc2098]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[DaveL]

Ever thought of one of these?

They start at as little as £130. Could be built in to the build cost.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cla...MIsdXurdaJ1wIVSDobCh2qDQ9PEAQYAiABEgKj2fD_BwE

I’ve already got one of those. Great bit of kit but on the bike I’m working on at the moment you need to have the engine on one of those and hoist the frame over the top and then lower it down to line up the mounting points. Nothing’s ever easy is it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If it was easy, there would be no point doing it. [emoji38]

Sent from my KFSOWI using Tapatalk

 

[cadman_4]

300kg is 150kg. on each end of the beam as a point load. That's approximately the weight of two adults.

So, provided you don't allow this point load to fall on a single-depth plate mid-span between two studs, then there isn't the slightest problem in 4x2 framing supporting it

Thanks Mike. What would the crossmember need to be, I was thinking a couple of 6 x 2 bolted together?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mike G]

Dunno. Occasional non-specific point loads on beams is not something I'd begin to know how to calculate. What I would say, though, is that stopping whatever you use for a beam from rotating (falling over) is going to be your biggest structural task.

 

[cadman_4]

Dunno. Occasional non-specific point loads on beams is not something I'd begin to know how to calculate. What I would say, though, is that stopping whatever you use for a beam from rotating (falling over) is going to be your biggest structural task.

Never thought I’d manage to stump you [emoji3]

I have some lengths of 6 x 2 to play with. As for the rotational side of things I had been thinking about using wood to wood joist hangers or building the beams into the framework below the double header? And then sitting them on the supporting framework. I’ll see if I can mock up a few ideas in cad and post them for comments

I tried looking a joist spanning tables but they are designed to spread the load over several joists in a given m2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mike G]

Exactly. A uniformly distributed load is something most architects can cope with using various tables and rules of thumb. A point load involves...............you know...........actual maths. :lol:

 

[cadman_4]

After having some more thinking about the hoist joist [emoji23] I have decided to park that idea for now. I have been thinking about the floor recently. I shall be casting a concrete base as most others but in the bike assembly half of the workshop I can see myself sitting or kneeling on the floor and so have been thinking about laying a celotex type insulation board down with a 18mm flooring on top. What are everyone’s thoughts on doing this? I would ideally do this throughout as it will also keep my feet warmer too. Would this floor be strong enough to bolt down a pedestal grinder to?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[9fingers]

After having some more thinking about the hoist joist [emoji23] I have decided to park that idea for now. I have been thinking about the floor recently. I shall be casting a concrete base as most others but in the bike assembly half of the workshop I can see myself sitting or kneeling on the floor and so have been thinking about laying a celotex type insulation board down with a 18mm flooring on top. What are everyone’s thoughts on doing this? I would ideally do this throughout as it will also keep my feet warmer too. Would this floor be strong enough to bolt down a pedestal grinder to?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a 18mm plywood floor with insulation over concrete and it is comfortable to stand on all day if needed.
I cant see a problem with a pedestal grinder on ply. If you use OSB, the screws dont hold so well so maybe drill into the concrete if they give way?
For kneeling, I'd suggest some rubber mats that you can move around for comfort.

Bob

 

[cadman_4]

Thanks Bob
I was thinking of something like t&g chipboard floorboard though. How thick is your insulation slab?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[9fingers]

Thanks Bob
I was thinking of something like t&g chipboard floorboard though. How thick is your insulation slab?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I only had room for about an inch and it is jablite :shock: frowned upon by many for its fire risk but under my floor and against concrete I reckon is it OK.
Generally there is more heat loss through walls and roof compare to floor and I only aim to keep it between 5 and 10 C in winter. Only uses a 750 watt oil filled radiator on a thermostat for a 30 sqm building.
When I logged it over one winter is was on about a 1/3 of the time.

You might find fixing machinery like a grinder no problem but something with more vibration like a wood lathe or a full height pillar drill that is much more top heavy that bolting through to the concrete will be best.
Easily done. Drill clearance hole through the floor and insulation, then drill concrete for a rawl bolt or similar (maybe chemical anchor) then fit a length of steel tube into the clearance hole cutting it flush with the floor.
Then you can tighten down on through that rather than the more flexible floor.

Bob

 

[cadman_4]

Interesting. I like your style. Well onwards and upwards, next week should see me get most of the design work sorted so I can get an idea of costs going forwards... I’m sure it’ll end up like grand designs were I spend at least twice as much as I’ve budgeted for [emoji50]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[9fingers]

Interesting. I like your style. Well onwards and upwards, next week should see me get most of the design work sorted so I can get an idea of costs going forwards... I’m sure it’ll end up like grand designs were I spend at least twice as much as I’ve budgeted for [emoji50]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I work on the basis that there has to be an easy/low cost solution to everything but perhaps I've just not thought of it yet!
When part of a project seems to be getting out of hand. Stop, re-think it, and stop the tail wagging the dog.

Bob

 

[cadman_4]

So after a long period of ground clearing I have arranged to borrow a mini digger from a friend.

Plans are to level out the area as the site slopes from left to right, once the gradients are sorted then I can get on and dig out a for the slab.

With a 4" slab thickened at end edges to 6" do I need to think about some kind of reinforcing (re-bar or mesh)

The workshop will be a single pour slab 7m x 4m.

The concrete needs to be pumped from the roadside, so circa 50m, with that in mind...

On the other hand i have considered digging a trench and building foundations and a floating floor, similar to a standard house construction. I am as always looking at the cost versus advantage point.

Any thoughts either way?

John

 

[9fingers]

I think I'd be looking at solutions only requiring single charge for the concrete pump to save cash.

Bob

 

[cadman_4]

I think I'd be looking at solutions only requiring single charge for the concrete pump to save cash.

Bob

Thanks Bob, when you say single charge I assume you mean pumping concrete in for a solid slab aka Mike’s way?

The second option I was thinking about would be ring beam foundation I think it’s called and then a raised wooden floor, typical old school house build (I live in a 1930’s one)

The reason for this is concrete cost versus wooden floor joists costs

John


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[9fingers]

I think I'd be looking at solutions only requiring single charge for the concrete pump to save cash.

Bob

Thanks Bob, when you say single charge I assume you mean pumping concrete in for a solid slab aka Mike’s way?

The second option I was thinking about would be ring beam foundation I think it’s called and then a raised wooden floor, typical old school house build (I live in a 1930’s one)

The reason for this is concrete cost versus wooden floor joists costs

John


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Apologies John I had interpreted your reference to house floor construction as concrete strip foundation plus a concrete floor poured later onto insulation at a later stage hence two visits by the pump.

A timber floor is much nicer to work on and kinder to cutting tools if dropped but that can be achieved with ply cladding on concrete or a suspended floor. The latter needs to be much stronger if you are going to have decent cast iron machinery in there at any time.

Bob

 

[Dan0741]

Evening John,

I did similar to what you re proposing. I also used a pump. It went 'fairly' well..... However i didnt have a superb experience with it given that the pump bloke didnt seem all that skilled/experienced. He managed to put the pump arm over the house ok - A large two story house, my garden distances are similar to yours, but there is quite a bit to coordinate. The mix seemed to block almost every meter3 and this resulted in us having to take the flexible sections of concrete pipe apart fairly often, this is not an easy task when full of pump mix...resulting in a wheelbarrow of concrete every 3 meters across the garden all over the lawn; a lot of f'ing and blinding and tidying up afterwards.They always say they need you to provide a place to wash the pump out which is another few wheel barrows of concrete that you need to lose nearby!

Concrete delivery times in my experience are no more than a very rough quide....i mean by hours +/- and when you have a pump on site it can feel like an eternity...

Better than 100+ wheel barrows uphill 50 m though...

I would suggest an early start, be meticulous about your preparation, identify and resolve anything that could cause a problem, a load of cheap OSB sheets about 4 foot square under each pipe join and a quick chat with a local farmer or similar to use a spot for washup...

The resultant slab though for me is perfect. Very pleased. I have 100mm of celotex under mine whch keeps the cold off and seems to retain heat. Its about 2 years old and I have no cracks movement or otherwise.

I dont mean to put you off or state the obvious but i wish i had known the full details when i did mine!

Looks like a cracking project.

Kind regards,

Dan

 

[cadman_4]

Well the wet Easter did give me a couple of nice sunny days to get a start on the groundwork. Was starting to look ok but now ready for ducks

Hopefully we’ll get some more dry weather soon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk