The imperial and metric thing.

[TrimTheKing]

See Dave's explanation above. The media, as you will know, report ANY situation the way their bias wants to report it.

Simple fact, the right to use/display/sell product using imperial measurement has NEVER been outlawed in this country. The only thing that was mandated was that there had to be a standard met.

Shops up here around Manchester have displayed both measurements for as long as I can remember, hence why I said right at the start that it's a monumental waste of everyone's time as it isn't even a thing.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

They were never told they couldn't sell in pounds, only that it couldn't ONLY be in pounds, that's the difference ...

Semantics. They couldn't sell with only imperial weights, as had been done for centuries.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Have you done the advanced course of Rewriting History at the J Stalin Poly? I seem to remember hefty fines. They didn’t earn the nickname of “metric martyrs” for nothing. I could be wrong about fines but there were certainly prosecutions.

If you want to be a smartarse about it feel free.

I've just Googled and a massive 6 (SIX) people were charged, 4 fined, 2 conditional discharges, over refusing to display metric as well as Imperial.

They didn't 'earn' the nickname, they gave it themselves.

Just a few quotes:

"The group believed that vendors should have the freedom to mark their goods with imperial weights and measurements alone. This opposes the current legal position that imperial units may be used so long as metric units are also displayed."

"In Thoburn v Sunderland City Council the fines were challenged in court; the verdict was in favour of Sunderland City Council, upholding the imposition of the fines. The challenges were made on the grounds that British law does not prohibit the use of imperial units when selling loose goods, but metric units must also be displayed."

I'll say again, I don't care one jot about the use of Imperial or not, what I do care about is the fact the British people are being rabble roused by a biased press (stoked by bent politicians) to get wound up by something that isn't, and never has been, prohibited from use.

 

[TrimTheKing]

They were never told they couldn't sell in pounds, only that it couldn't ONLY be in pounds, that's the difference ...

Semantics. They couldn't sell with only imperial weights, as had been done for centuries.

We drove around in horse driven carts for centuries, why change to powered vehicles...?

I'm stepping out now chaps, clearly this subject is more emotive than it first appeared and I've got far bigger fish to fry in my life right now than discussing an imaginary ban on weighing stuff.

bscene-drinkingcheers:

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Another anomaly - low bridges can have their height marked in imperial and metric, or just imperial - but not just metric. I've always thought that we should have done as Australia did and metricated everything including currency at the same time, if we were going to bother at all. I did read many years ago that our government at the time understood that the USA was going metric as well.

 

[novocaine]

bscene-drinkingcheers:

Mines a PINT Mark, I'll join you in the cheap seats outside the discussion.

 

[Lurker]

Market traders around here just got around weights by selling fruit and such by the bowlful.

 

[Andy Kev.]

... because they're 'bringing back' something that to my knowledge has never been taken away ...

But it was taken away, wasn't it? People were prosecuted for selling stuff in pounds.

According to the Daily Fail, in reality history shows only a couple of people who refused to put the metric were told off. They were never told they couldn't sell in pounds, only that it couldn't ONLY be in pounds, that's the difference.

Here's one of a number of links to various reports in The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/09/2

Now if it's in the Daily Totalitarian, it's gotta be true. Tee hee!

 

[novocaine]

And here's the legal standing without the media bias

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theblackle ... 2/%3famp=1

Note, not for selling in Imperial but for not having calibrated scales.

 

[9fingers]

Given that we have had (at least) one generation through the education system with a metric base and a smattering of imperial units (feet pints etc) then there is no point in try to drive out metric units not removing the imperial ones.
As a few have noted, it would be a good time to ditch centimetres - a bastard unit that has no basis in engineering and seemed to exist to cause confusion.

It mildly amuses me when I buy sausages from one of the German discounters, they are packed in 454g containing 8 x 2oz sausages. I think they also sell chipolatas as 16 x 1oz = 454g

Bob

 

[Mike G]

.....As a few have noted, it would be a good time to ditch centimetres - a bastard unit that has no basis in engineering and seemed to exist to cause confusion.....

Every which way you fiddle with the system you'd cause confusion. Kids are taught centimetres. The Spanish use centimetres. Centimetres are the spawn of satan, but they are what a lot of people are used to.

 

[novocaine]

the spawn of satan.

Oi, leave me out of this.

 

[Cabinetman]

Yes it’s all spherical objects, the one I find not as easy is gradients, one in four I could visualise immediately. Ian

 

[Cabinetman]

Anyone know why contractors signs now call foot paths foot ways? Not sure we can blame Europe this time.

 

[Tiresias]

Anyone know why contractors signs now call foot paths foot ways? Not sure we can blame Europe this time.

I think, although it is not my field, that there may be a legal distinction between the two. A foot path being a simple right of way on foot, and a foot way being what most people would call a pavement, ie adjacent to a carriage way. It’s probably in the ‘80 Act. Or the 1800’s one.

But I could easily be wrong.

 

[Malc2098]

Anyone know why contractors signs now call foot paths foot ways? Not sure we can blame Europe this time.

This is Highway Engineers' legal terminology. Historically, a 'footpath' is Public Right of Way like a bridleway or a byway. So they differentiate by using the term footway, even though the public have used that term for years.

If they put a sign up 'Footpath Closed' that would mean something different to 'Footway Closed'

And in this time of litigation, if they got it wrong, someone would be bound to make a claim for something.

 

[RogerS]

Dave’s right, massive PR exercise to (and I’m going to skate on even thinner ice and break our own rules here) distract from partygate and the ongoing and consistent lying to us by our politicians (of all parties I might add, just for purposes of equality). Imperial measurements have never gone away, I bought a quarter of aniseed twist from a sweet shop only 3 weeks ago.

It’s nonsense peddled by the government and media and controlled by Murdoch to distract from far more important things.

There, I’ve gone there, I’ll prepare to be thrown out!

:text-bravo: :text-goodpost:

I work in metric but if someone asks me to show them with my hands what, for example, 30mm looks like, I will struggle. If they ask me to show them, say, 2ft then that's easy.

 

[Malc2098]

Back in the 1960s, the yard I worked in used to sell plywood, 50" x 60" and 60" x 50" and 60" x 60" and 8' x 4' but in 4, 6 9 and 12mm thicknesses.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Back in the 1960s, the yard I worked in used to sell plywood, 50" x 60" and 60" x 50" and 60" x 60" and 8' x 4' but in 4, 6 9 and 12mm thicknesses.

I wonder if the manufacturer decided that the thickness was the least critical dimension, irrespective of the market, so one size could fit all. Then the actual sheets could be supplied in breadths and widths according to local demand.

 

[Malc2098]

Back in the 1960s, the yard I worked in used to sell plywood, 50" x 60" and 60" x 50" and 60" x 60" and 8' x 4' but in 4, 6 9 and 12mm thicknesses.

I wonder if the manufacturer decided that the thickness was the least critical dimension, irrespective of the market, so one size could fit all. Then the actual sheets could be supplied in breadths and widths according to local demand.

The birch ply came from the Baltic states, so you might be right; local demand being UK. Manufactured in metric thicknesses but cut for UK requirements. In those days, kitchen cupboards were only made in birch ply and the 50x60 or 60x50 determined which way the grain went. Odd sizes, but I never found out why, and we sold loads of the stuff.

 

[9fingers]

Norm used to complain of US plywood sold as fractional imperial thicknesses always being a bit undersized so that was possibly imported metric sizes.

Bob

 

[Jar944]

Norm used to complain of US plywood sold as fractional imperial thicknesses always being a bit undersized so that was possibly imported metric sizes.

Bob

Most plywood over here is sold as fractional but actually metric in thickness (but not all) it's actually irritating. Mdf is always imperial. So you might get a 1/2" sheet that is .500 and one that is .468. 3/4" is all over the place from .720" up to .750" . The worst though is 1/4 plywood. It's anywhere from .187" to rarely .250".

 

[Raymedullary]

As a teacher of DT I regularly have to wrestle kids through CM and MM's. We teach a lot of architectural drawing work using Revit so therefore scale is a big thing.
My school is selective so most of the pupils have decent Maths skills BUT If there was one thing I wish we could (nationally) do re measurement it would be to obliterate centimetres. I think they are used in Science a bit more but I ban even the mention of them in my classroom!
Personally I use MM or inches, whichever is the most convenient.

 

[Mike Jordan]

While running my small business making joinery and cabinets for narrow boats I was very wary of trusting sizes sent by anyone of my age group (70s) who measured in cm. It was not unusual for them to confuse cm and mm.
A gentle phone call suggesting they revert to imperial measure saved a few boaters from having dolls house furniture made!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I lived next door to a retired maths teacher. We were talking one day about kids being over dependent on calculators and he said one problem is their lack of mental arithmetical ability. They couldn't easily spot decimal point errors - if they multiplied 40 x 40 on a calculator and keyed it wrongly and the answer came out as 16,000 they'd write it down as correct. Centimetres can only compound an existing problem in that sort of instance.

 

[novocaine]

I lived next door to a retired maths teacher. We were talking one day about kids being over dependent on calculators and he said one problem is their lack of mental arithmetical ability. They couldn't easily spot decimal point errors - if they multiplied 40 x 40 on a calculator and keyed it wrongly and the answer came out as 16,000 they'd write it down as correct. Centimetres can only compound an existing problem in that sort of instance.

Pah, idiots everyone knows it's 8

 

[Lurker]

I lived next door to a retired maths teacher. We were talking one day about kids being over dependent on calculators and he said one problem is their lack of mental arithmetical ability. They couldn't easily spot decimal point errors - if they multiplied 40 x 40 on a calculator and keyed it wrongly and the answer came out as 16,000 they'd write it down as correct. Centimetres can only compound an existing problem in that sort of instance.

This is partially why you get “computer says no” decisions, folks have got so used to relying on computer outputs being correct they have lost the ability to see a mistake.

 

[Andy Kev.]

What I'm going to write now is hugely subjective and I make no claims for the rightness or wrongness of it.

I too dislike the centimetre. For me it is simply too small to be of practical, everyday use. Consider a bit of wood which is 15 cm wide. There's no way on earth that I can intuitively look at it and divide it up into 15 strips. The same bit of wood is, however, 6" wide (give or take). I immediately have a rough idea of what 3" and 1 1/2" will look like as well as 4" and 2".

In this case it doesn't matter to me that one measurement is imperial and the other metric but rather that the absolute size of the inch is of much more practical use than the absolute size of the cm. The other thing which I think about the inch is that once you get down to 1/64", you can mentally say, "negligible". I wonder what fraction of a cm or indeed a mm would make me think that.

It's worth remembering that for practical purposes there is sub-negligible i.e. the area where any measurements become meaningless e.g. when edge jointing. What you want there is the quality of flat and you can't measure that. (Of course you can measure it with a laser or microscope but I'm thinking in practical terms here.) So after 1/64" we effectively enter the absolute with flat being unachievable even in quantum mechanics. Maybe if Einstein had had a two foot, four fold ruler he would have sorted the universe out in three eighths of the time he actually took.

 

[AndyP]

. The other thing which I think about the inch is that once you get down to 1/64", you can mentally say, "negligible". I wonder what fraction of a cm or indeed a mm would make me think that.

Maths, or is it numeracy these days, was never my strong point but I thank that would be 2/5ths of a mm.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I'm more than happy to take your word for it!

I wonder if the ruler with the 0.2 mm markings on it would come with a free microscope.

 

[Woodbloke]

I'm gradually, very slowly, coming round to thinking entirely in metric. I refuse to purchase, for example, any sort of rule with imperial measurements. For me, the most glaring inconsistency is that road sign distance is still indicated in miles. A bit spendy though, to change them all to Km :eusa-whistle: - Rob

 

[Malc2098]

And don't get me started on luthiers who talk in thous!

 

[9fingers]

And don't get me started on luthiers who talk in thous!

Although the correct metric unit for these types of accuracies is the micron (millionth of a metre) I still find myself converting those to thous to get a feel for the dimension under discussion so I can relate it to a feeler gauge for instance.
25.4 um= 1thou

Bob

 

[Woodbloke]

And don't get me started on luthiers who talk in thous!

Although the correct metric unit for these types of accuracies is the micron (millionth of a metre) I still find myself converting those to thous to get a feel for the dimension under discussion so I can relate it to a feeler gauge for instance.
25.4 um= 1thou

Bob

I cut my shovetails to that level of accuracy :eusa-whistle: :lol: - Rob

 

[9fingers]

And don't get me started on luthiers who talk in thous!

Although the correct metric unit for these types of accuracies is the micron (millionth of a metre) I still find myself converting those to thous to get a feel for the dimension under discussion so I can relate it to a feeler gauge for instance.
25.4 um= 1thou

Bob

I cut my shovetails to that level of accuracy :eusa-whistle: :lol: - Rob

Maybe I do too? I always use a leigh jig and there is no need to measure, they just fit time after time.

Bob

 

[Malc2098]

My cnc router can do hundredths of a millimetre, not that I'm anywhere near good enough to take advantage of that.

 

[flying haggis]

 

[Dr.Al]

And don't get me started on luthiers who talk in thous!

Think yourself lucky: some PCB suppliers work in "mils", which are exactly the same as thou, but given a name to maximise confusion given the number of people who use "mil" as an abbreviation for "millimetre".