Ultra-processed food ?

[RogerS]

I popped into M&S yesterday and bought an item on the spur of the moment. Later on that day, I happened to look at the ingredients list expecting it to be just a few items for such a simple foodstuff (admittedly gluten-free).

Not so....



Rather a lot, I think.

So for today's quiz....what was the item ?

 

[Lurker]

Soup?

Edit: prawn cocktail

 

[Lurker]

Just hope that there is no added E.coli STEC O145

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

Chicken and ham soup.

 

[Mike G]

Eggs Benedictine?

 

[Trevanion]

"Ultra-processed"?

Eat the food and enjoy it, don't worry about the ingredients list unless there's something on there that will kill you

 

[duke]

Salad dressing.

 

[Mike G]

Quiche?

And I'm with you. A diet high in ultra-processed foods is one of the reasons the populace is as sick as it is, and the decades-long rise in life expectancy has flattened out. An occasional meal here and there is fine, but if Zoe says to avoid the stuff, then there is sound science behind it.

 

[Cabinetman]

Quiche?

And I'm with you. A diet high in ultra-processed foods is one of the reasons the populace is as sick as it is, and the decades-long rise in life expectancy has flattened out. An occasional meal here and there is fine, but if Zoe says to avoid the stuff, then there is sound science behind it.

Yes you’re correct Mike, it’s not as bad here as in America, Organically produced meat is the safe way to go there. It was brought home to us when we couldn’t make decent stock from ordinary Chicken bones. Only the organic bones would make stock that solidified. Animals routinely fed drugs even when there’s nothing wrong with them isn’t good.

 

[Trevanion]

And I'm with you. A diet high in ultra-processed foods is one of the reasons the populace is as sick as it is, and the decades-long rise in life expectancy has flattened out. An occasional meal here and there is fine, but if Zoe says to avoid the stuff, then there is sound science behind it.

Can this be considered "ultra-processed" though? It's certainly processed food but most of those ingredients aren't overly manufactured like some other foods. Everything is processed to a degree unless you are raising your own animals and slaughtering them, growing your own fruit, vegetables and arable... Even then, making your own pizza from your own produce would be considered an "ultra-processed" food.

I think a lot of this fear of "ultra-processed" foods has come from the United States where their food manufacture and quality is very poor with many nasty industrial ingredients making up most supermarket foods to make them significantly cheaper, MSG for example is still used extensively. It's generally much less of an issue here because of the EU regulations on the quality of food and its ingredients.

 

[thetyreman]

this is why I make my own food, I know what's in it, far more work but always worth it.

 

[RogerS]

Can this be considered "ultra-processed" though? It's certainly processed food but most of those ingredients aren't overly manufactured like some other foods. Everything is processed to a degree unless you are raising your own animals and slaughtering them, growing your own fruit, vegetables and arable... Even then, making your own pizza from your own produce would be considered an "ultra-processed" food.

I think a lot of this fear of "ultra-processed" foods has come from the United States where their food manufacture and quality is very poor with many nasty industrial ingredients making up most supermarket foods to make them significantly cheaper, MSG for example is still used extensively. It's generally much less of an issue here because of the EU regulations on the quality of food and its ingredients.

I don't think you really understand what the term 'ultra-processed' means. Perhaps this helps ....



Based on that definition, I suggest that the item that I bought is definitely 'ultra-processed'.

 

[Trevanion]

I’m not confused about it, I’m just disputing how dangerous these “ultra-processed” foods supposedly are. What you posted doesn’t have anything in particular that would be cause for concern in my mind, yes, there are a lot of ingredients but that by itself isn’t going to kill you and stressing about it will probably do more harm to you.

I would be more concerned about the individual ingredients themselves and how harmful they are, rather than a couple of dozen common, mostly naturally occurring ingredients that you find in most foods.

Remember, store bought food from the United States and even worse, South America as that study was done, contain significantly more toxic ingredients than anything you can purchase here.

 

[Jonathan]

I agree with Dan here, processed or ultra processed food won’t kill you……well not straight away.
BUT! For medical reason my family try to stay on a non processed food diet and have done for many years.
Last week we visited an elderly friend that insisted we eat with her, we have a family agreement, when in someone else’s home to eat as they do.
We ate lunch and dinner which consisted of manly processed foods.
There is no scientific evidence here but we all felt very different, we all felt lethargic, one of us had diarrhoea, we all felt abnormally bloated, and lack of clarity in the mind.
After a couple of days we started feeling normal again.
My non scientific assumption is that when you have a long period of eating non processed food your system detoxifies all the chemicals and drugs that are in the modern food process. Only then do you realise when they are re induced.

 

[RogerS]

I’m not confused about it, I’m just disputing how dangerous these “ultra-processed” foods supposedly are. What you posted doesn’t have anything in particular that would be cause for concern in my mind, yes, there are a lot of ingredients but that by itself isn’t going to kill you and stressing about it will probably do more harm to you.

I would be more concerned about the individual ingredients themselves and how harmful they are, rather than a couple of dozen common, mostly naturally occurring ingredients that you find in most foods.

Remember, store bought food from the United States and even worse, South America as that study was done, contain significantly more toxic ingredients than anything you can purchase here.

You pooh-pooh the Nova classification on the assumption that all their studies are invalid because "contain significantly more toxic ingredients than anything you can purchase here.". Do you have the source to support that statement ? Yet it has very good peer-reviews. For example, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916522105277

How dangerous are they ? I suggest that you watch https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/articles/van_tulleken and see what happened to his brain when he consumed UPF for a month.

 

[AJB Temple]

Recently reported research, which I can't find the link for right now (Tim Spector, a well known professor who also posts on You Tube), suggests that some of the typical approved E number additions frequently found in ultra processed food, adversely affect bacteria balance in the lower gut. Leads to bowel issues and exacerbates IBS, Crohns etc. We have allowed industry to break down food into cheap components and glue it back together with processed gums, add preservatives, sweeteners, flavour enhancers and so on meaning that those who indulge are eating chemical constructions. Some of the stuff sold as healthy food for children is an outright con. Supermarkets peddle this stuff and people buy it, often economically disadvantaged people. It's bad news in my opinion and the developed world obesity and type II diabetes crisis is the result.

 

[Phil]

Any processed foods are bad for your kidneys.
I have no scientific proof, but ..........
I just eat and do as my Nephrologist dictates.

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

 

[Trevanion]

You pooh-pooh the Nova classification on the assumption that all their studies are invalid because "contain significantly more toxic ingredients than anything you can purchase here.". Do you have the source to support that statement ? Yet it has very good peer-reviews.

The peer review you link to is an American one, there are also European peer reviews saying that NOVA is not effective: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41430-022-01099-1

But we could be here all day going back and forth on this peer review and that peer review... It's all largely irrelevant. I believe that it does not matter if a product is "ultra-processed" or not, I believe the overwhelming dictation as to whether it's good or bad for you is simply the makeup of the product and the volume of which you consume, the fact of whether it something is "ultra-processed" or not has very little to do with it. You could have incredibly healthy food that would technically be "ultra-processed" by NOVA's classifications because it has a lot of healthy ingredients rather than basing it on what the ingredients themselves are and how harmful they are to you.

A common comparison for the American food and drink versus British food and drink argument is Fanta. American Fanta contains three times the sugar, more artificial colours, flavourings, and no orange juice, whilst British Fanta contains real orange juice and is significantly healthier than it's American counterpart. This is common across practically all American products as well as other countries that do not have such stringent regulations on food and drink as Europe, hence why these countries generally have horrendous obesity problems.

https://www.tastingtable.com/1412282/reason-fanta-different-overseas/

 

[AndyP]

on a related theme, sugar in jam. I make jam with 40%, or less, sugar / 60% fruit. Redcurrant, blackcurrant, blackberry, strawberry, cherry, rhubarb and ginger. Nearly always frozen fruit. Squirt of lemon juice and/or small amount of mashed apple provides the setting ingredient without losing the flavour of the base fruit.
Shop built jam always seems to have 60% sugar to 40% fruit.

 

[RogerS]

You could have incredibly healthy food that would technically be "ultra-processed" by NOVA's classifications because it has a lot of healthy ingredients rather than basing it on what the ingredients themselves are and how harmful they are to you.

From the table above...

Ultra-processed foods typically have more than one ingredient that you never or rarely find in a kitchen. They also tend to include many additives and ingredients that are not typically used in home cooking, such as preservatives, emulsifiers, sweeteners, and artificial colours and flavours.

Seems to me that your understanding of NOVA is not mine and so I'll leave it there.

 

[AJB Temple]

It's an interesting area. Lots of perspectives have validity and in the end we have personal preferences. Some food "science" is a bit questionable depending on what you prioritise. For example, the Food Standards Agency handbook on hygiene and food handling says you should keep eggs in the fridge. But this breaks down the cuticle shell membrane and allows bacteria to penetrate the egg faster according to the egg industry. Supermarkets do not refrigerate eggs. The same FSA handbook and guidance for environmental health officers, encourages restaurants and caterers not to use whole eggs for things like making mayonnaise, but to use pasteurised egg yolks and separate egg whites supplied in containers. They (FSA) prioritise safety over taste and quality to a degree and this affects things like recommended cooking temperatures. Horses for courses I suppose.

 

[Dr.Al]

on a related theme, sugar in jam. I make jam with 40%, or less, sugar / 60% fruit. Redcurrant, blackcurrant, blackberry, strawberry, cherry, rhubarb and ginger. Nearly always frozen fruit. Squirt of lemon juice and/or small amount of mashed apple provides the setting ingredient without losing the flavour of the base fruit.
Shop built jam always seems to have 60% sugar to 40% fruit.

I'm not sure if this is still the case, but Asda used to do some "extra special" jam that was 60% fruit. It was very good. Like you, I'd rather have less sugar (in everything) - I get really annoyed by the way that "no added sugar" means "packed with sweeteners", but then I'm someone who thinks that lime juice is at about the right level of sweetness

 

[Trevanion]

Ultra-processed foods typically have more than one ingredient that you never or rarely find in a kitchen. They also tend to include many additives and ingredients that are not typically used in home cooking, such as preservatives, emulsifiers, sweeteners, and artificial colours and flavours.

You can have all these things that are listed there in food, but it does not necessarily make it hazardous to long-term health and thus makes NOVA flawed because they are looking at the ingredients at face value rather than each one individually and whether they are genuinely toxic or not. It's a system based on sweeping assumptions, it makes all "ultra-processed" food seem evil and going to kill you but the reality is most food particularly in Europe is completely fine to consume in moderation as part of a varied diet which I believe is the most important factor.

The NOVA system may work for other parts of the world like America because the vast majority of their "ultra-processed" food is genuinely toxic and a health hazard, I don't think it has much if any relevance here. I'm not saying all European "ultra-processed" food is healthy, but it's unfair to tar everything with the same brush as NOVA does.

Look again at your original post, aside from the fact that there are a lot of (naturally occurring) ingredients and some compounds that make it an "ultra-processed" food, what is intrinsically unhealthy in the ingredients list provided you're not eating in excess?

 

[RogerS]

It's an interesting area. Lots of perspectives have validity and in the end we have personal preferences. Some food "science" is a bit questionable depending on what you prioritise. For example, the Food Standards Agency handbook on hygiene and food handling says you should keep eggs in the fridge. But this breaks down the cuticle shell membrane and allows bacteria to penetrate the egg faster according to the egg industry. Supermarkets do not refrigerate eggs. The same FSA handbook and guidance for environmental health officers, encourages restaurants and caterers not to use whole eggs for things like making mayonnaise, but to use pasteurised egg yolks and separate egg whites supplied in containers. They (FSA) prioritise safety over taste and quality to a degree and this affects things like recommended cooking temperatures. Horses for courses I suppose.

Interesting point, Adrian. Such a pity that they don't extend their safety concerns to ingredient listing in foodstuffs and permit ingredients below a certain level to be excluded from the list. The level, however, is high enough to give some coeliacs a problem.

Wine's are another 'Gotcha' in that they don't have to reveal what or how much chemicals etc they pump in.

 

[AJB Temple]

I agree Roger. But the body responsible for food labelling governance is different and disconnected I think. For those of us with family etc with issues like Coeliac, Crohn's etc there is often little choice but to make food from scratch with known ingredients.

 

[MattS]

That book pictured earlier has made us change our diet. We used to make most of our food from scratch but the stereotypical busy life / convenience factor was creeping in. We were still cooking from scratch for meals but its snacks and lunches which I find it’s easy to eat ultra processed. Bread for example is almost all full of UPFs. You can disagree with the science if you like but these food products made in factories are not what we are designed to eat. With most things I like natural / authentic / handmade and we’ve reset our food and definitely feel better for it. 2 months in we both now have noticed that when we do have ultra processed food such as chocolate bars it is no longer appealing. It might all be psychosomatic but our health has improved.

 

[Mike G]

You can have all these things that are listed there in food, but it does not necessarily make it hazardous to long-term health ..........

Look again at your original post, aside from the fact that there are a lot of (naturally occurring) ingredients and some compounds that make it an "ultra-processed" food, what is intrinsically unhealthy in the ingredients list provided you're not eating in excess?

Time for you to do some studying, Dan:

 

[wallace]

Anyone read Barbara Oneil's book, she makes alot of sense, also there is a good program on netflix about foods and what they do to the gut.
It concerns me that modern food is bulked up with ingredients that our bodies cannot deal with.

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

It concerns me that modern food is bulked up with ingredients that our bodies cannot deal with.

Agreed!! We have evolved alongside a finite number of raw foodstuffs, which we then 'processed' in a limited fashion with heat, herbs and spices. Our bodies are therefore equipped to deal with same.
Modern "processed" foodstuffs are precisely what you wrote; amalgams of unnaturally combined materials to make "palatable" items from otherwise slightly unattractive, but digestible, material. My particular bugbear is glucose syrup ( it has several other misleading names); it just does NOT exist in Nature. Glucose - in small concentrations - is in every living cell as part of respiration's pathways, but you will never locate a 'pool' of it. The nearest you get is honey and nectar, where it is part of a mixture of other sugars.

 

[Dr.Al]

An interesting thing I read recently about the finite number of raw foodstuffs: apparently there are about 400,000 species of plant in the world and it's estimated that we could eat 300,000 of those. We actually eat about 200 species and more than half the calories and protein we derive from plants comes from just 3 (maize, wheat & rice). I imagine that's more down to the mass-farm-ability of those species than anything to do with taste and/or nutritiousness.

 

[John Brown]

Did we ever find out what it was?

 

[RogerS]

Chicken and bacon sandwich, John

 

[AndyP]

An interesting thing I read recently about the finite number of raw foodstuffs: apparently there are about 400,000 species of plant in the world and it's estimated that we could eat 300,000 of those. We actually eat about 200 species and more than half the calories and protein we derive from plants comes from just 3 (maize, wheat & rice). I imagine that's more down to the mass-farm-ability of those species than anything to do with taste and/or nutritiousness.

Why we are not all eating nettle soup is beyond me. Can’t be difficult to farm.

 

[johnward]

Why we are not all eating nettle soup is beyond me. Can’t be difficult to farm.

When I was a young boy I can remember my mother cooking nettles as an extra vegetable but can't remember what it tasted like.

 

[Cabinetman]

They were feeding them to the Giraffes at the Yorkshire wildlife park yesterday, raw of course. Must have different skin to me!

 

[Tiresias]

Mmm, well, as ever, a problem with nomenclature.

I cook everything from scratch (the reason for which I will mention later). But that doesn’t mean I have to make my own cheese. Which would be a processed ingredient. Or ultra processed, I dunno – depends upon the production methods, I guess.

But let us take a few examples. I have a pot of (Belgian) mustard in front of me. The ingredients are mustard grains, vinegar and sea salt. But the vinegar may contain sulphites (almost certainly sulphur dioxide from the wine base for the vinegar). Processed, or ultra processed?

I will be using some doubanjiang for our dinner tonight. Ingredients chilli, broad beans, salt and wheat flour. According to NOVA that is unprocessed. Non-alcoholic fermentation. Really unprocessed?

Now, one of the reasons I cook everything from basics (apart from the fact that I have the time and I enjoy it) is the infiltration of onions into all foods. My partner cannot eat any of the allium family (except garlic). Not an allergy, but extreme gastric discomfort. Just look at any pre-prepared food and 75% will have onions or onion powder (worse) in it.

Now I am on a roll. Trevanion mentioned MSG. Gets a bit of a bad rap. It exists in nature. It’s in soy sauce. I know it as ve tsin, but the Nipponese call it aji no moto (I think, it’s been a while). You can buy it by the kilo in the Asian supermarket I was in this morning: ‘taste powder’ it is called. Before it was synthesised many Asian cultures used a paste of dried fermented wheat to do the same job. Processed or not? But it should not be used to excess - the fault of many a rubbish chinese restaurant. You can taste it when they can't be bothered to make a decent base for their soups and just bang some instant umami in there.

Oh, and just as a final mini-rant. Paleo diets. Yeah, right. Eat like the stone age. And die at 40, just as they did.

 

[AJB Temple]

When I was a young boy I can remember my mother cooking nettles as an extra vegetable but can't remember what it tasted like.

Nettles are an "in thing" currently among the forager fraternity and were in the press this weekend as a fun thing for kids to collect and make soup (wearing rubber gloves). As we have a dog wee free nettle patch about the size of a tennis court (for wildlife) I've made nettle soup with preserved lemons and sour cream. It tastes like a mild herb soup. People usually like it and have no idea it is nettles.

 

[AJB Temple]

Tiresias - is alliums bother her but garlic doesn't, have you tried very finely chopping mild onions such as shallots and cooking them for a long time with a block of butter and some salt (to inhibit browning) until they become a very soft paste. This makes the onions extremely mild and usually works for people with such sensitivity. Is very had for adding flavour and thickening to sauces.

I've experimented with MSG, just for interest. In totally natural form as I'm sure you well know it's present in tomatoes as glutamic acid and is supposedly the reason why tomato sauces are used such a lot. I find using powdered MSG either the wheat gluten extract type or synthesised E621is a bit hit and miss. Used in small quantities I find it adds very little if any umami flavour that I can't get by other means, and if I use enough to be able to tell a flavour difference, it's a bit unpleasant. Restaurants, not just Asian or Chinese, use it far more than people probably realise, for example in so called low salt foods or to give green leaf vegetables a boost and even in seasonings for chips.

 

[wallace]

Nettles are an "in thing" currently among the forager fraternity and were in the press this weekend as a fun thing for kids to collect and make soup (wearing rubber gloves). As we have a dog wee free nettle patch about the size of a tennis court (for wildlife) I've made nettle soup with preserved lemons and sour cream. It tastes like a mild herb soup. People usually like it and have no idea it is nettles.

I wonder if thats because clarkson was making soup from them a while back. Apparently the romans introduced them because of their love of tea.