Wet sharpening system advice

[Guineafowl21]

This will be used for:
Hand tools, planer/thicknesser blades
Kitchen knives
Slaughter/butchery knives
Occasional home-made knives

The machine of choice seems to be a Tormek. The cheaper ones look like they’d do the job, but after-sales service and spares is obviously not as good.

Second-hand Tormek prices are pretty high - for example, there’s an old Supergrind 2000 available, but with no accessories, for £250. Adding the accessories I would need puts the price up near £400, or close to the price of a new T-4, and over my budget.

Any advice/comments welcome.

 

[AJB Temple]

Replied elsewhere. Identical thread. Wont repeat here.

 

[Woodster]

Tormeks are good for putting a final edge on stuff but can be very slow if you need to remove a bit more steel. Having a wet system in a workshop has been seen by some as a bit of a handicap but you can now buy Diamond wheels for them if you have a spare £200. There are several other reputable suppliers of this type of grinder including Triton and Record Power.

Perhaps another alternative is a belt grinder? This one takes all the Tormek jigs.

https://www.axminstertools.com/axminste ... tem-106232

 

[Trevanion]

The Tormek itself is OK provided you've got the patience of a saint, or a slave you can order to use the damned thing while you go do something more productive.

I've actually got the Tormek conversion kit for a high-speed grinder which allows you to use the jigs for the Tormek on a regular grinder. Although I don't think it would be well suited to regular High Carbon Steels like bench chisels and knives.

 

[Guineafowl21]

Thanks. I’ll have a look at belt machines as I hadn’t considered them.

 

[sunnybob]

I have the JET copy of the tormek (most likely made in the same factory).

Its good for major reshaping of very blunt or damaged edges.
It IS slow, no argument.
But for somebody like me with no training in edge shaping it takes all the guesswork out of it.
I can consistently grind any angle I want, even a micro bevel.

It will not get you to "scary sharp" edges though.

 

[Doug71]

I have had a Tormek for years, never use it though, slow and messy.

 

[Guineafowl21]

I have had a Tormek for years, never use it though, slow and messy.

This is why I posted in two similar forums - there was a vain hope that someone had a machine hanging about that they might sell.

Apologies if this was unethical.

Lots of comments on the slowness of wet grinders. Now, I don’t do this commercially so speed isn’t critical. What I can’t stand when sharpening knives is the lack of decent progress - if I buy an old hand plane it takes ages to make a difference to the edge, then I find it’s gone wonky in one place. I can get a boning knife nice and sharp, only to find it’s gone oddly blunt very quickly. I can’t tell why.

At least with a jigged machine I hope to make slow but sure progress.

 

[sunnybob]

This topic has been discussed a couple times before.
If the blade is held behind the wheel with the handle above, so that you have to lift the handle to apply pressure there is absolutely no mess. Not one drop of water escapes.
If the blade is held the same way you would on a grinding wheel with the handle down and between you and the wheel the water runs down the blade, all over you, and the bench and the floor.

My JET came with a very detailed instruction book and even a DVD that was so long and involved I never actually got to the end of it.

the JET or the Tormek will achieve the results you want.Apart from that final razor edge which I have not achieved.
It is slow, maybe a couple minutes on a chipped edge, but it is sure.

 

[DaveL]

I have the Jet machine, it works well, just as Bob said.
But the Tormek jigs are much better than any of the others on the market.
I also have the kit to use the jigs with a dry grinder, that's useful for major reshaping.

 

[Woodbloke]

Thanks. I’ll have a look at belt machines as I hadn’t considered them.

I had a Robert Sorby thing and regretted it after a week, having sold my original green Tormek Supergrind. I then sold the Sorby and went back to a Tormek T7. I would advise staying well clear of any belt grinder; they grind too hot and too quickly. You'll also need decent extraction to remove the debris from the belt and metal dust which will find it's way into the air. Not good and please don't get me started on the Sorby jigs :twisted:

The biggest bugbear with the Tormek system is not the speed for re-shaping (and it is slow to be fair) but the fact that the original wheel simply can't cope with sophisticated powdered steels such as PM-V11. After a couple of minutes it just becomes glazed and refuses to cut or cuts very, veeeeeery slowly. By FAR the biggest improvement you can do to a Tormek is to fit a coarse diamond wheel, which is a complete game changer and makes the whole machine light years ahead of any similar competition. The coarse diamond wheel cuts a lot quicker that the original, never goes out of shape and never reduces in size. Utterly brilliant! I use my T7 for all re-grinding and it's fine even for sharpening lathe tools, which can be used straight from the stone, once the burr has been removed from the edge.

As regards the alleged slowness, I'm a hobbyist (as are most of use here) and the time issue isn't important so when I get a bunch of blades that need regrinding I set aside a couple of hours and get them all sorted. Nice cool blades with no over heating; easy peasy :eusa-dance: - Rob

 

[Guineafowl21]

Thanks. I’ll have a look at belt machines as I hadn’t considered them.

I had a Robert Sorby thing and regretted it after a week, having sold my original green Tormek Supergrind. I then sold the Sorby and went back to a Tormek T7. I would advise staying well clear of any belt grinder; they grind too hot and too quickly. You'll also need decent extraction to remove the debris from the belt and metal dust which will find it's way into the air. Not good and please don't get me started on the Sorby jigs :twisted:

The biggest bugbear with the Tormek system is not the speed for re-shaping (and it is slow to be fair) but the fact that the original wheel simply can't cope with sophisticated powdered steels such as PM-V11. After a couple of minutes it just becomes glazed and refuses to cut or cuts very, veeeeeery slowly. By FAR the biggest improvement you can do to a Tormek is to fit a coarse diamond wheel, which is a complete game changer and makes the whole machine light years ahead of any similar competition. The coarse diamond wheel cuts a lot quicker that the original, never goes out of shape and never reduces in size. Utterly brilliant! I use my T7 for all re-grinding and it's fine even for sharpening lathe tools, which can be used straight from the stone, once the burr has been removed from the edge.

As regards the alleged slowness, I'm a hobbyist (as are most of use here) and the time issue isn't important so when I get a bunch of blades that need regrinding I set aside a couple of hours and get them all sorted. Nice cool blades with no over heating; easy peasy :eusa-dance: - Rob

I’m looking at a T7 with accessories for £395, which includes a stone dresser and diamond truing thing which I assume could deal with glaze?

 

[Woodbloke]

I’m looking at a T7 with accessories for £395, which includes a stone dresser and diamond truing thing which I assume could deal with glaze?

Yes, it will deal with the glazing issue, but you'll be doing it forever This is the reason I sold my original green Supergrind as I was getting constantly fed up with truing and de-glazing the wheel. The coarse diamond wheel is expensive, but it's the best £200 or so that I've spent in the 'shop for a long, long time. With the diamond wheel there's no need to purchase the stone dresser or truing tool.

It won't sharpen your blades though, it's purely for re-grinding or taking off a lot of metal in a relatively short time. Honing the edge is a completely different process - Rob

Edit: you can now buy the latest version, the T8 without a wheel and then purchase the diamond wheel separately.

 

[RogerS]

I prefer dry grinding/sharpening and swear by my Worksharp. Such a pity that the manufacturer has zero interest in supplying it to the UK. If you contact them, they point you to Rutlands. Go to Rutlands and they don't sell it !

It's this one although I think that this company is simply a shipping agent and so wouldn't buy from them.

[youtube]UmMwIKzUagQ[/youtube]

 

[Doug]

I was fortunate to have Martin Brown demonstrate the Tormek 15 years ago when I first bought one, his answer to slowness was to apply more pressure & he certainly did :shock: Judging by the Tormek clones that are out there now a days they can’t be that bad.

The problem I see with most high street “systems” is there’s no one size fits all, grinders & linishers are fast but can lead to blued edges, water machines can seem slow in comparison but negate the risk.

Personally I use both, a linisher for removing bulk material & the sharpening of HSS turning tools & a Tormek for refining the grind prior to honing, this I do by hand. I’ve never had a problem when grinding PMV11 though I do use the stone grader to keep the surface fresh https://www.romfordtools.com/search.php ... ubmit.y=21

The one jig the revolutionised the Tormek for me was the camber jig
https://www.romfordtools.com/product.ph ... twQAvD_BwE

This over came the main problem with these machines in that I never found one where the three axis of the jig bar, wheel shaft & stone face were all perfectly aligned, I completely stripped mine to try & remedy this & whilst I got it closer to grinding perfectly square it still was slightly out. The Camber jig allowed me to dial out that little imperfection.

Are Tormeks perfect? No they’re not, but then neither are any of the other systems I’ve tried over the years & if I could only have one it would be the Tormek.

 

[TrimTheKing]

The one jig the revolutionised the Tormek for me was the camber jig
https://www.romfordtools.com/product.ph ... twQAvD_BwE

That’s the square edge jig. Have you linked to the wrong one or am I missing something?

 

[Woodbloke]

I was fortunate to have Martin Brown demonstrate the Tormek 15 years ago when I first bought one, his answer to slowness was to apply more pressure & he certainly did :shock:

I've seen Martin do that trick as well, but on my Tormek if it's pressed too hard, it just slows up and stops! :lol: In addition, you can't press hard with a diamond wheel (or are advised not to) as you need to let the diamonds do the work so there's no real need to give it a bit of wellie

The one jig the revolutionised the Tormek for me was the camber jig
https://www.romfordtools.com/product.ph ... twQAvD_BwE

That’s the square edge jig. Have you linked to the wrong one or am I missing something?

I know that as the 'square edge jig' as well. Very nifty adjustment method for a slight correction of 'out of squareness'. That jig was also designed to hold Japanese chisels with their weirdly sectioned blades - Rob

Edit: PMV-11 was a complete sod :evil: to grind with the standard wheel and it didn't even like A2 very much

 

[AndyP]

I am not at all familiar with the tormek but from the webpage:-

You can also set the jig for a slightly convex shape.

Which I assume to mean a camber

 

[TrimTheKing]

I am not at all familiar with the tormek but from the webpage:-

You can also set the jig for a slightly convex shape.

Which I assume to mean a camber

Fair enough. It threw me because it is literally called ‘The square edge jig’!

 

[Woodster]

I would advise staying well clear of any belt grinder; they grind too hot and too quickly.

How quickly it grinds is down to the grit chosen and the operator. That situation may apply with the Sorby Edge Pro if you use too much pressure. But is it even an issue with the bi-directional, variable speed Axminster Ultimate Edge I linked to? The real beauty of Belt Grinders is you can change grits very quickly, something you can’t do with any ordinary grinder. The other advantage is you get a flat grind not a hollow grind. I don’t have a Edge Pro, I sharpen my tools on a modified RP BDS250 and haven’t had any problems with knives, chisels, plane irons or wood turning tools. Belt grinders are hugely popular in the USA not only for shaping knives but sharpening as well.

A friend of mine works at a school and he still uses a Viceroy Sharpedge. Once again you get a nice flat grind with this grinder.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/viceroy-sharpedge/

 

[Woodster]

I forgot to add, several companies make this type of thing if you can find one. Looks easy to use?

https://www.dictum.com/en/grinders-acce ... ded-716020

 

[Woodbloke]

I would advise staying well clear of any belt grinder; they grind too hot and too quickly.

How quickly it grinds is down to the grit chosen and the operator. That situation may apply with the Sorby Edge Pro if you use too much pressure. But is it even an issue with the bi-directional, variable speed Axminster Ultimate Edge I linked to? The real beauty of Belt Grinders is you can change grits very quickly, something you can’t do with any ordinary grinder. The other advantage is you get a flat grind not a hollow grind. I don’t have a Edge Pro, I sharpen my tools on a modified RP BDS250 and haven’t had any problems with knives, chisels, plane irons or wood turning tools. Belt grinders are hugely popular in the USA not only for shaping knives but sharpening as well.

A friend of mine works at a school and he still uses a Viceroy Sharpedge. Once again you get a nice flat grind with this grinder.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/viceroy-sharpedge/

I was working at Ax when they were developing the Ultimate Edge thingie and it is based on the RS Edge Pro but I never had the opportunity to use one so can't really comment. However carefully I tried, it was impossible on the Sorby thing to achieve a really accurate grind on a plane blade to about 0.5mm of the edge itself, principally 'cos the belt is flapping around on the plate as it's going round and also 'cos the jig is complete garbage. I wrote a little piece at the time which may be of some interest or amusement or both

As far as I can see, there's no advantage to a flat vs hollow grind and I'm not getting drawn into that one, thanks...save it for somewhere else :eusa-whistle: Fwiw, the Tormek produces a hollow grind which they themselves mention in the 'book of words' is minimal and I quote..."when grinding a tool of 2mm thickness (5/64") with a 20deg edge angle the hollow is as small as 0.003mm (0.0012") which is hardly noticeable and has no practical influence on the function of the tool" 'Nuff said.

As to the Viceroy, I used one for 15 years in my 'shop at school so know it well. Flat bevel yes and quickly produced but my hands were constantly drenched :twisted: in the special lubricating oil that they used. It did mean however, that I could grind and hone a complete set of No.4 blades (that's 20) in around 40mins - Rob

 

[Doug]

The one jig the revolutionised the Tormek for me was the camber jig
https://www.romfordtools.com/product.ph ... twQAvD_BwE

That’s the square edge jig. Have you linked to the wrong one or am I missing something?

Yep same Jig I seem to remember Charlesworth referring to it as the clambering jig which is where I first saw it with him demonstrating it a few years back, if you back the two screws off it allows the blade to pivot side to side & form a camber.

 

[Doug]

I was fortunate to have Martin Brown demonstrate the Tormek 15 years ago when I first bought one, his answer to slowness was to apply more pressure & he certainly did :shock:

I've seen Martin do that trick as well, but on my Tormek if it's pressed too hard, it just slows up and stops! :lol: In addition, you can't press hard with a diamond wheel (or are advised not to) as you need to let the diamonds do the work so there's no real need to give it a bit of wellie

Perhaps it’s the newer machines I certainly never been able to stop my old metal Tormek

Edit: PMV-11 was a complete sod :evil: to grind with the standard wheel and it didn't even like A2 very much

You surprise me there Rob I’ve never had a problem with the ordinary stone & the majority of my plane irons & chisels are either A2 or PMV11 :eusa-think: I also like that using the stone grader gives you two different grades with one stone.

 

[Woodbloke]

You surprise me there Rob I’ve never had a problem with the ordinary stone & the majority of my plane irons & chisels are either A2 or PMV11 :eusa-think: I also like that using the stone grader gives you two different grades with one stone.

Dunno Doug; PMV-11 was a complete barsteward to grind, even with truing/cleaning the stone with the little gizmo of a tool. It used to take me well over half and hour to do one plane blade :evil: With the coarse diamond wheel I can do a PMV-11 blade now in a fraction of the time :eusa-dance: - Rob

 

[Woodster]

The jig system used on the Tormeks mostly look pretty good although they do add considerably to the overall cost. They look better than some of those on the Sorby Edge Pro which is probably why the Axminster Ultimate edge is designed to accept the Tormek jigs?
One of the potential drawbacks with belt systems is the use of graphite pads between the belt and the platen. Are far as I am aware both the Sorby and the Axminster can be used without it. This may partly help explain your difficulty with a plane iron. I certainly run my modified Record Power without it. I believe both machines come with it fitted though and I’m not sure what documentation covers this part. I use a tool steel platen on my machine but many Knife makers in the US use a heat resistant glass plate on their platens.

I’ve used the Viceroy sharpedge when visiting my friend and didn’t find it messy?

 

[Woodbloke]

The jig system used on the Tormeks mostly look pretty good although they do add considerably to the overall cost. They look better than some of those on the Sorby Edge Pro

The Tormek jigs belong in another universe and are simply light years ahead when compared to the ProEdge jigs; I think it likely that they were 'manufactured' (that's using very loose terminology) in a 1950's Soviet tractor factory somewhere in the depths of the Ural mountains. They're bad, bloody awful in fact - Rob

I’ve used the Viceroy sharpedge when visiting my friend and didn’t find it messy?

You probably weren't grinding 20 plane blades inside 40mins :lol: - Rob

 

[Woodster]

I’m not sure which forum it was on but one Sorby owner bought some Axminster spares so he can use the Tormek jigs on his machine in the same way as the Axminster Ultimate edge. It’s an easy modification.

This is the UE in action.

https://youtu.be/FW7h788jvVc

 

[Woodbloke]

I’m not sure which forum it was on but one Sorby owner bought some Axminster spares so he can use the Tormek jigs on his machine in the same way as the Axminster Ultimate edge. It’s an easy modification.

This is the UE in action.

https://youtu.be/FW7h788jvVc

It is a nice machine and IMO a quantum leap upwards from the RS ProEdge. Two good things about the ProEdge are that a) it's built like a main battle tank and b) it's made in the UK whereas the UE is of course Chiwanese. I'm not sure as I never fully investigated it but I seem to recollect that some, though not all Tormek jigs will fit it; certainly some of the EU jigs are specifically made for it.
Were I to change again (which is now highly unlikely) I think I'd have to go to an Axemporium (Basingstoke probably) and have a good 'hands on' play with the machine before parting with any 'hard earned' - Rob

 

[Woodster]

The Ultimate Edge is expensive but unlike the Sorby it’s variable speed and you can change the direction of belt travel. Both of these features could prove very useful for some sharpening jobs. I’m happy enough with my sharpening setup but I’d love those features on my machine if I could achieve it cheaply enough.

 

[Guineafowl21]

Thanks for another ever-lively sharpening debate. I went for a T7 in the end.

 

[Woodbloke]

I went for a T7 in the end.

Good choice - Rob