Dave's Shed project (progress)

[Wizard9999]

Dave

I can see the pictures on 21st and 22nd March posts, but then not on the first post on 30th although I can see the pictures on the second and third post on 30th. From then on I can't see any until the sketchup image on your post on 29th April.

It may be my end, but I have tried on both my old iPad and much newer iPhone.

Terry.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Enjoying this thread, but am wondering if I am the only one who can't see many of Dave's pictures?

Terry.

All good for me, though they can be a little slow to load. Just you Terry mate!

Cheers
Mark

 

[Wizard9999]

Just tried the iPhone again and they do seem to be loading, maybe I did not give it enough time, but still not on the iPad. I guess it is just getting too old, I know it will not take any more system updates. Guess I will have to read this thread on my phone or rely on Dave's powers of description, lol.

Terry.

P.S. Andy still not ordered the iMac, to be honest I have been traumatised by the whole iPad business for my daughter and now convinced whatever I order I'll get it wrong. I'm an insecure little flower at heart you know.

 

[Wizard9999]

Enjoying the thread even more with all the pictures on my phone :lol: .

Strikes me that you have a much more user friendly tip than I have around here. They limit you to 5 bags of rubble / soil per household, per month! Not sure they can really police it fully, but would certainly mean turning up with several trailer loads in one weekend would not work.

We had new carpets fitted last week and I took the old ones to the tip. Guy was trying to say I could only take one room of Capet per room per month now. He then told me that from May there is a charge for taking carpet, he didn't smile when I said how glad I was it was the 29th April then. In the end I had to casually ask his name and where I could find the rules with the carpet limit on the council website, at that point out of the goodness of his heart he let me tip it all.

Terry.

 

[RogerS]

...... to be honest I have been traumatised by the whole iPad business for my daughter and now convinced whatever I order I'll get it wrong. ....

Hi Terry, I tried searching the forum to see what problems you're referring to with the iPad but the only reference I could find was something to with transferring files - which is now sorted as far as I can see.

So....go on, take the plunge and get yourself an iMac.

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

Quick question for you all. I've been modelling the floor with staggered joins and trying where possible to ensure joins are over the centre of joists. The problem I run into soon enough is that eventually I can't position the boards to always land on a joist at the joint. Is it acceptable to simply join the boards in between the joists and either just fly them over the gap or brace it with a noggin. I am obviously laying the boards perpendicular to the joists and running joists at 400 mm centres. Advice would be much appreciated before I spend hours repairing the window after ive thrown the laptop through it

 

[9fingers]

I would ensure that all joints are either on a joist or a noggin.
Unsupported joints are going to bite you at some stage or other even if it is just by squeaking.

Bob

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

I would ensure that all joints are either on a joist or a noggin.
Unsupported joints are going to bite you at some stage or other even if it is just by squeaking.

Bob

Thanks bob, I've managed to configure it with 8 boards and most of the joints are over, or very near a joist. I'll brace with noggins too as a squeaky floor would drive me mad

I'll post a picture in a while to illustrate.

Cheers

David

 

[Mike G]

Dave, your joints should be centred on a joist.......and the joists should be positioned to suit the size boarding you are using. If you want to post the shed base size, and the flooring size, I'll do you a quick joist layout. It's a matter of seconds in Autocad.

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

EDIT - What an idiot i am. Mike- see the next post first!

Here is the floor detail with staggered joints - the floor area is 4680mm x 2260mm on 400mm centred joists. The flooring is 22mm T+G ply 2400*600.

2nd pic with the flooring hidden so you can see the joists. you can see the pickle i'm in. Maybe i just have to bite the bullet and introduce more wastage to keep the joints over a joist?

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

Hold the bus, I might have just been massively overcomplicating things for myself...

See latest below. 8 boards, all centred on joists. I just ignored the "cut the end off and move it" as i think i was taking it a bit too literally by moving the complete remainder of the board. In the new config i just laid the boards according to the joists that i knew would fit and hey presto. What a tool i am!

Why the hell didn't i do that first? :evil: FFS..

 

[Mike G]

:lol:

It doesn't matter when you get there........so long as you get there on paper rather than with a hammer in your hand.

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

:lol:

It doesn't matter when you get there........so long as you get there on paper rather than with a hammer in your hand.

Can you imagine the clangers when I actually get my hands on tools

 

[StevieB]

If they are T&G boards and you are not moving the spare from one row to the end of the next, remember that the revised layout you propose may not have the tongue on the correct end of the board - you will need to carefully consider how to make the half sheets 'fit' to minimise wastage.

Steve

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

Hi Stevie, good point and one i had to check there. I've annotated the diagram above now where i think it will be ok, as long as i keep the boards oriented consistently so the tongues all line up.

Cheers

 

[Mike G]

If they are T&G boards and you are not moving the spare from one row to the end of the next, remember that the revised layout you propose may not have the tongue on the correct end of the board - you will need to carefully consider how to make the half sheets 'fit' to minimise wastage.

Steve

So long as the boards are all oriented the same, the off-cut from the RH end of one row starts the left hand end of the next row. Just put the joint on a joist. It always works.

 

[StevieB]

I know that Mike - but the OP was suggesting he was cutting to the joist rather than using the entire remainder of the board. This is fine, but entirely possible to cut the tongue off or work from the wrong end of the board (DAMHIKT!)

Steve

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

Hi all,

A wee progress update. the last couple of weeks have been fab up here, so got basically as far as i can before i start working with timber!

I'd been agonising over the joists up there ^^, to make sure that i didn't make a stupid mistake when cutting nearly £200 worth of concrete lintels to the wrong size. I dont have any pics but needless to say a few eyebrows were raised in the neighbourhood when close to a ton of lintels was delivered I made my calcs using the model and decided that using 3x2.7m lintels, 4x2.4m lintels and a 1.8m would do nicely. I'd lose a bit off of the 2.4's but i wanted the long lengths to be intact to support the building as much as possible.

I managed to manhandle them single-handedly into the back garden using the Egyptian technique i perfected earlier in the build. I expect the Egyptians must have lost a few toenails in their time - i nearly did when a long lintel reached the tipping point on my roller and ran right into my left big toe :shock: no permanent damage but my toe was throbbing like hell that night.

So, after double checking my calcs i borrowed a diamond blade stihl saw from a mate and got PPE'd up to the max. I was NPTC qualified for Chainsaw work and have lots of experience working with saws but this thing was different gravy. The speed at which it cut through the lintels was astonishing. I also quickly figured out the concrete at the end "snapped" once through the second bit of steel reinforcing, so ensured all cuts were made right round the beam to ensure a nice straight face.

So, after successfully cutting all the lintels and leaving all body parts attached i started moving them into place. Heeding the experience learned before i placed the lintels parallel to final position and filled the grids below with gravel, then slid gently into place to prevent bending and twisting the grid. I forgot to get many pics before this, so here's an action shot of the usual suspects manhandling a 2.7m lintel into place:

We managed to get the grids filled with reasonable precision - no point in filling them all for the sake of it, so ended up using buckets to avoid disturbing the levels:

So after lots of faffing, checking measurements, a bit of packing and rotating joists to even out some manufacturing irregularities with the finish, loads of gravel and a retrofit of some galvie band, we have the finished article:

The levels are all pretty damn good and we are 5mm off square over 5.5m, but i have built in 10mm tolerances on the concrete to allow me to square the actual building perfectly on it. I have to say its all a pretty tight fit on the grids, but no major disasters which for me at least proves the modelling is working!

The eagle eyed will see the centre of the centre plinth is on its wrong axis. Originally i had a 2.7m and a 1.8m in there to span a 4.58m centre line, leaving 80mm of a gap to fill. I then added 10mm to my cuts to give me breathing space after bricking it slightly about cutting concrete to that level of precision, so the concrete was cut to 4.89 and 2.46, meaning i had a 90mm gap to fill. As it happens i forgot to cut a 90mm offcut, but with the manufacturing tolerances the gap was just under 100mm once everything was down, which was exactly the width of one of the lintels so it slid in like a glove! I'd purposefully kept the joists away from this area and the 50mm height will be covered by the flooring (by 15mm!) so fine to leave as is.

Chuffed to be largely complete on groundworks, with only burying and backfilling the cable to be done. after a bit of faffing with the shower pipe (cheers Dan) i got the cable installed and then went a bit mad with expanding foam to try and seal the hole as much as possible whilst still letting the cable pull through. Worked out pretty well and is in exactly the right place for it to come into the shed.

Next order of business is to get the cable buried properly and get my model finished so i can cost out wood and work out how / when i'm going to do this.

On that note i'd appreciate some wisdom. I've framed out the model at 400mm centres, ensuring the joists are supported under a wall stud. It means i have a lot of wall studs but i can't see how you could space at 600mm centres and still support the joists? My doors will both be custom sizes and i've left 5mm at each side and 10mm at top and bottom for tolerances. I've added double horizontal wall plates (terminology?) at the top, as well as cripple studs and a third extra bracing over the joists to support them over the gap. Not quite conventional but basically 3x45mm lengths nailed or screwed together. I'm not sure if this is enough, or overkill?

Also not quite sure how to finish the end joists off as i have them floating at the moment. I assume they dont need supported by the wall framing in the middle as none of the others are, but I will need to provide support at the end. Just a big lump o' wood be enough to support the raised end?

As always an illustration to support my ramblings:

Thanks for all your responses so far, glad to hear folks are enjoying the thread!

 

[Mike G]

Excellent, Dave.

Just a thing, though..........expanding foam can eat through some wiring insulation. It's a bit of a no-no to have it come in contact with any wiring, so I'd suggest cleaning that off again (I know.........sorry!!), and stuffing some mineral wool in its place.

 

[Mike G]

Studs at 600 centres and joists at 400 C's is fine, provided you have a doubled-up plate as shown in your Sketchup sketch.

 

[Dan0741]

Dave very neat and your tolerances are very impressive. You will find, as I did, that the accuracy you have achieved early on will set you in good stead for the rest of the build. Its so much easier to maintain good accuracy as you go rather than pull back a mistake halfway through. I was amazed by this when i got to roof plate level and everything was almost perfect. The roof will then also be easier.

Just a thought... I have been faffing around with a tarpaulin for the last 6 months, and it really has been a pain and im surprised its lasted at all. Im finally rid of it this week. Can you think now about a plan to finish the roof first once framing is done so that you don't have this bother....i have watched builds on you tube where this was done and it sure seems to make life easy!

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

expanding foam can eat through some wiring insulation. It's a bit of a no-no to have it come in contact with any wiring

I had no idea! Aside from being a nightmare to mould and clean up I always thought it was pretty inert stuff, so thanks for the tip Mike!

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

...think now about a plan to finish the roof first once framing is done

Thanks Dan, I am quite happy things have worked out so far and no major boo boos! That's absolutely what I want to do ASAP- figure out the framing and get the roof on / membrane on / cladding so I can finish boarding inside etc without the weather being too much of an issue. I also want to cost materials but not order them until I need them so they aren't sitting around for ages. All back to the drawing board now before phase 2 starts!

Must catch up with your thread again - great to hear you are making progress!

Cheers

David.

 

[Deejay]

expanding foam can eat through some wiring insulation. It's a bit of a no-no to have it come in contact with any wiring

I had no idea! Aside from being a nightmare to mould and clean up I always thought it was pretty inert stuff, so thanks for the tip Mike!

Morning all

I think it's polystyrene that reacts with PVC. There's an article here ...

http://www.voltimum.co.uk/articles/etci ... ng-systems

and a thread here ...

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/new ... ionID=1521

I'd check the spec.of the foam (and duct) you used.

Cheers

Dave

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

Hi all,

Another weekend of fine dry weather in the shire, so took the opportunity to tick a big item off the list. With groundwork largely done the only remaining task was to bury the SWA. I'd started the trench to allow me to get the base down, but hit an enormous load of concrete holding a tiny wee edge slab in place. I wasn't relishing the task but it had to be done!

First task was to clear out the existing crap that had fallen into the existing trench, then tackle the concrete. There really was an outrageous amount, so briefly flirted with the idea of lifting it out or breaking it. it was completely immovable though, so that was quickly abandoned. A quick trip to my local hardware store equipped me with a breaking bar which was long and sturdy enough to get down into the trench and start battering away at the various lumps of stuff lurking under the garden. After about two hours I had achieved this:

Its certainly big enough for the SWA to fit through and barring a nuclear blast above the shed it will never be disturbed. I also noticed that two wayward hammer strikes had left me with a near perfect visual marker of the cable direction for the future

The remainder of the trench was easier going as i got closer to the house, primarily because a machine had dug up the worst of it for the house foundations. I also uncovered an unknown soil pipe, so carefully dug away underneath it so the SWA would lie safely below it. End of day 1 results here- i was absolutely shattered

Sunday wasn't a day of rest either, i scraped, dug and clawed my way down below 450mm for the length of the trench and cleaned the sides / base of any sharp stones for the cable to go in. For once i had a good idea before something happened and borrowed a cable tester to test the SWA was sound - luckily all cores checked out including the metal sheath, so i knew it would be ok to use. I would have cried if i'd buried it and it was faulty!

I made quick trip to Wickes and was lucky to get parked because of the alien invasion to grab another 5 bags of cheap sand - if I've learnt anything about this project you'll always use more than you think!

Armed with a working cable, some sand and some hazard tape i laid the base layer of sand and fed the cable through, leaving enough in the shed to reach head height and the rest at the house end for coming through the wall to the consumer unit. Cable in situ below the soil pipe:

then a layer of sand and some hazard tape going through the tunnel and under the soil pipe. I spent much too long ensuring the cable tape was flat and even considered the orientation of the letters for a future digger (i'm such a loser)

Finally, another drop of sand, some pieces of white porcelain tile to act as a visual marker and a second layer of hazard tape over the pipe (writing going the other way this time ) before backfilling with sifted soil.

sifting that soil was backbreaking work, i didn't realise just how much crap i'd brought out of the ground.

No wait, thats just one barrow load :lol: Remember the composter from post #1?

I reckon if you were good at jigsaws you could probably rebuild the factory from scratch..

A quick pic of the house side (not fully plumbed in because i dont know exactly where it will enter)

the scene at close of play on Sunday (i'm letting it settle a bit before relaying the slabs) :

and a wee seat in the sun to celebrate a job well done.

Also noticed my builders tan...

So as 80's pop signer Yazz said, the only way is UP!

Cheers

 

[Mike G]

That's what passes for a tan in Scotland, I guess ! :lol:

Nice work Dave. I sympathise: that ground looks hard, and digging is damned hard work. One day soon you'll be building the actual walls and roof....

 

[Jimmy Mack]

Looking good Dave, and a well earned drinky, I hope you had two! You won't miss that trenching and digging under ...(of walls in my case) I don't.

Jim

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

You won't miss that trenching and digging

Absolutely not Jim, it was painful in every sense of the word! I tanked the bottle btw bscene-drinkingbuddies: Although 6mm SWA is nothing to 25mm, handling that must have been a mare! You really appreciate mechanical help on stuff like that. Caught your thread earlier and things have moved on really well. In fact tonight i'm going to revisit the classics to glean ideas, hints and tips for my build!

On that note i noticed when i was browsing my old thread i think i've misinterpreted one of Mike's drawings.(Reproduced hopefully with Mike's permission!)


Here's what i've done:

so instead of just adding a piece of timber at the door threshold i added it all the way through. Apart from making it harder to level (possibly) and using more wood I can't see why this would be a problem?


I've also started looking at roofing material, breather membrane and insulation. On roofing material i have no idea whats "good" so been lookin at this kit: http://www.permaroof.co.uk/diy-rubber-roof-kits works out around £300 which is acceptable and seems decent.

On membrane, Tyvek appears to be the danglies but is quite pricey. I saw this stuff used on another build and its a bit cheaper. It also comes in a 50m roll which should be enough.http://www.permavent.co.uk/permavent-eco/

For insulation Celotex and Kingspan are widely used, but i've also seen woll / glass fibre used. Assuming i keep a 10mm airgap between the outside membrane and the insulation that leaves 85mm space in a 95mm timber void.

Any recommendations would be appreciated, but as i said i'm off to trawl the classics for view, hints and tips!

cheers

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

Morning all, been browsing breather membranes since 615 this morning. Must get a life!

I've been scouting some threads and looks like powerlon ultra perm max has been dan0741's membrane of choice. A 50*1.5m roll of this is about 85 quid delivered and would be more than enough to cover the building.

However a nearby gumtree seller has a new 100*1.35 roll of protect TF200 for sale and I could probably get for <£50. 100m is more than enough so I'd have almost half a roll left to sell on. On paper the powerlon stuff looks better but I don't know if I'm worrying needlessly about detail again?

If anyone has a view on the tf200 membrane I'm going to see if it's still available and do some research on it.

 

[Mike G]

On that note i noticed when i was browsing my old thread i think i've misinterpreted one of Mike's drawings.
Here's what i've done:

so instead of just adding a piece of timber at the door threshold i added it all the way through. Apart from making it harder to level (possibly) and using more wood I can't see why this would be a problem?....

No problem. If you've done it already as per the Sketchup drawing, then fine. If you haven't, then I suggest alternating the corner butt joints so that on on course the front plate goes through to the end of the front facade, and on the next level, the end plate goes through to the end of the end facade (I'm imagining 30 seconds of head scratching as you try to work out what I'm saying!). This will enable one nail through the top of the uppermost sole plate to secure the corner joint completely.

 

[Rod]

For what it's worth I used Corovin Membrane on my shed build.
It performed very well as I used it early on to weather proof the construction - I was fed up with the constant bad weather at the time.
Membrane, outer cladding, insulation then internal OSB in that order.

Rod

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

alternating the corner butt joints so that on on course the front plate goes through to the end of the front façade

I get you Mike and it makes perfect sense. I think that's down to lazy modelling as I've just used the component below to create the second layer, but will modify this now as it will be more secure.

Thanks for the recommendation on the Corovin Rod, another brand to check out. It appears the gumtree ad for the TF200 has disappeared, but no email to confirm its no longer available - ho hum. Looking at this again Tyvek etc. is actually better value as you general pay about £1/m for a 100m roll, where the ultraperm is a bit more than this at £170/100m. I might actually plump for a 100m roll as the guidance with green timber cladding I'm looking at is to apply in autumn / winter to minimise cracking, so if the sawmill can only supply green timber i may have to leave the shed watertight but unclad until later on in the summer at least. This means if UV does attack the membrane i could re-clad with a fresh layer prior to adding the cladding without buying another roll. I'm sure a few months would be fine though.

On scouring gumtree i also found about 6 rolls of earthwool for sale near me for £50. I need to see how well this product would hold up externally compared to glass fibre, but again any opinions on it? Without doing any research I'm not sure it would be OK, but I'll check.

Cheers

 

[Mike G]

.......On scouring gumtree i also found about 6 rolls of earthwool for sale near me for £50. I need to see how well this product would hold up externally compared to glass fibre,.....

Earthwool is glassfibre. It's just a much better version than the old stuff. It's perfect for your circumstances, although I advocate batts for walls as they are a little stiffer and thus less likely to slump.

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

Earthwool is glassfibre.

Ha, yes I found out after a quick Google. The name fooled me into thinking it had slightly more hippie credentials!

The batts seem to be less well used but I'll see what I can find. I'm also thinking of roof details to finish off so will post this later to invite comment.

Cheers, hope you all have a productive day!

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

Roof detail as promised. I'd been mulling how to finish the EPDM nicely as the kit i've looked at does use trims, but the end of the membrane has to be glued to somethingand the front of the joists isn't a continuous face. I saw the mention of gable ladders on Jimmy Mack's thread and they would see to fit the bill for finishing the sides, so i just whacked another 6*2 on the front of the joists - See proposal below.

My main concern is all that extra weight of a big 6*2 hanging off the sides of the roof when its not structural. The overhang is only 100mm once the cladding is on (should i make it more? I do quite like the idea of having a small roof overhang at the front. At the sides and rear its more like 50mm proud of the cladding) but i'm pretty sure its overkill to have another joist hanging out up there. Any suggestions?

I'm off to review Jimmy's thread for the latest updates.

Cheers

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

Hi all,

I'm getting to the stage where i'm about to start ordering materials - getting excited now! My model is 95% complete - see pic below and link to the sketchup model if you have the software:
behold!

Key stats are:
Length - 4.88m
width - 2.44m
Max height - 2.365m
Min Interior head height - 1.948m
Door Heght - 1.87m
Door Width - 0.86m

All studwork is 95*45mm C16 regularised treated timber. Roof is 145*45 C16 treated. 18mm OSB3 roof deck with EPDM(not shown.) 11mm OSB cladding inside (outside not shown obviously as i haven't figured out how to model it yet ), 22mm T+G ply floor.

I have a list of outstanding questions if you'll indulge me :lol:

1. To window, or not to window. Originally i wasn't going to put a window in for security reasons, but the natural light would save using lights during the day. In my view i could add one to the right of the left hand door, but it might ruin the symmetry. The other option is to put one between both windows and build the frame to accommodate it. or smaller windows nearer the roof?

2. Roof overhangs. The roof is going to overhang the cladding by approx 100mm at the front and 50mm at the sides and rear. I think this looks ok, but i havescope to overhang a bit more at the front. any point in this? I like the smallish overhang but i could add another 100mm i think easily enough.

3. I have used 145*45 joists to face the joists, because i can't think of an easy way get the joist faces covered. overkill? I'm worried about that much weight cantilevered off the end of the building, even if its supported by joists / gable ladders.

4. Doors - 860mm wide with c. 10mm gaps - i know this is pretty tight so useful width will be 850mm. Since the doors are going to fit the structure i plan to build them later from 95*45 and clad. 860mm meets my criteria of getting wide MTB bars in, but any gotcha's i should watch out for such as ensuring doors can clear cladding? Planning to use fire door hinges to support them so keep things running smoothly.

5. materials storage. I've got some prices from Travis Perkins and their price on 95*45*4800 is actually pretty good, so thinking of buying in June and using in July. I assume C16 treated timber will be fine stored covered outside for up to a month?

Cheers

David

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

I know i'm being a total saddo and answering my own forum posts , but I can't edit the old post so to save anyone reading the effort of replying:

1. I'm going to add a couple of windows. Both will be on the main compartment side and will not alter the symmetry of the building, so i'll see what it looks like once i've modelled it.

2. I'm going with an overhang - no reason not to IMO

3. 145*22mm Gravel boards are half the weight of joists and will finish the structure acceptably in my view.

4. I haven't modelled the diagonal bracing for the door, but i will add this. Still open to opinion on this!

5. Poundland sell tarps, so i think i should be able to cover the wood fine. Going to go through quotes now and order mid july for starting w/c 18th July. The nerdage finishes and the real work begins!

Cheers

 

[Mike G]

Dave, doors and fascia boards should be of 1" (25mm) timber. The sawn stuff is cheaper, but it depends on the look you want.

 

[ScotlandtheDave]

Thanks Mike, i appreciate your reply. I was planning to use 95*45 for the doors, i.e the same stuff as the framing timber. will it be too heavy or is there another reason for using 25mm for the doors? I'm happy to use 25mm wood for the fascia, i was just struggling to find it online at 145mm size and gravel boards appeared in the right size

EDIT - looks wise i wasn't planning to paint the timber, so was going to leave the sawn treated timber in place. You've got me thinking now..

 

[Mike G]

2" timber for doors is way over the top. Too heavy, too expensive.