Regular readers will recall me saying no more renovations. Well.........

[AJB Temple]

We have solid (Corian type) worktops and I just routed drainage grooves into the section to one side of the underslung sink. It works well as a drainer but is still functional space for other use. The dishwasher is where it should be, right next to the sink unit.

Tea towel for us to dry handwashed dishes, I ain't payin' for catering paper.

Fully get that. I wouldn't either in a normal environment. We have a larder room and a prep room. The kitchen is operated as an 18 seat restaurant now and is therefore subject to FSA inspections. They like paper towels. The dishwasher is next to the potwash sink as you don't want dishwasher noise in a dining room. Huge rolls of catering blue paper are £0.85 each in six packs. This is by far the best way to dry fine stemware like Riedel or very fragile Zalto after it's been washed and rinsed as it leaves zero spot marks.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Decades ago in a busy commercial kitchen we had a washing machine and a tumble dryer next to the sinks and the dishwasher. As soon as tea towels, oven cloths, aprons or whatever got slightly soiled hey were thrown in the laundry basket and as soon as the washing machine was empty in it went, a continuous recycling of kitchen laundry. It was stopped after a health inspector found it against regulations, and it had the effect of encouraging everyone to use stuff dirtier than it needed be because they couldn't be bothered to go to the laundry for clean stuff.

 

[Lons]

That's fair enough Adrian, commercial is far removed from domestic usually.

 

[AndyP]

I was using that blue catering paper for applying finishes on the lathe. The roll that was giving to me by a mate many years ago probably lasted me about 5 years!!

 

[Lons]

I was using that blue catering paper for applying finishes on the lathe. The roll that was giving to me by a mate many years ago probably lasted me about 5 years!!

That's what I use it for Andy among other things. I bought a half dozen pack of years ago and still have a couple left

 

[PAC1]

That's what I use it for Andy among other things. I bought a half dozen pack of years ago and still have a couple left

Be careful when you order new. A long time ago I bought a pack of six for the workshop. Lasted years. I ordered some more from our favourite shed only to find it had been tactically wound onto the roll (as loose as possible) and does not soak up much. The combination meant the pack did not last 5 minutes.

 

[AJB Temple]

Buy the catering rolls. Do not buy from amazon (rubbish). Nisbets.

 

[Spectric]

Will someone please explain to me the current fashion of having a kitchen sink that does not have a draining board? I just don't understand iit.

Probably because of those new fangled gadgets called a dishwasher, takes up space, uses power and is not really enviromentally freindly.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Probably because of those new fangled gadgets called a dishwasher, takes up space, uses power and is not really enviromentally freindly.

Takes up space, yes, but a dishwasher uses less energy than washing up by hand. It also uses less water. Just how damaging the detergent is, I don't know, but generally DWs are considerably more efficient than trad washing up.
But dishwashers have been araound for decades and it is only recently that I've noticed this absence of intergated draining board. Perhaps I'm just way behind the times (and I've not been looking at new kitches for the last 10 years).
But I still need to do some washing up by hand. My Japanese knives and my Edinburgh crystalware are not going anywhere near my dishwasher.
S

 

[Jonathan]

Never checked the claim that dishwashers use less water ….. I love washing up by hand and the waste water goes to the garden.
My 2 cents on the no drainer fashion is the industry coping the new money jet set that have these super overpriced kitchens and never use them other than to show them off and brag about the cost.

 

[Lons]

Takes up space, yes, but a dishwasher uses less energy than washing up by hand. It also uses less water. Just how damaging the detergent is, I don't know, but generally DWs are considerably more efficient than trad washing up...........

The biggest saving in my case Steve would be the cost of a divorce which is what my missus would demand if we didn't have one.

 

[Steve Maskery]

The biggest saving in my case Steve would be the cost of a divorce which is what my missus would demand if we didn't have one.

Ah, yes, tell me about it.
S

 

[Spectric]

Don't you need lots of crockery so you use enough so that the dishwater is full ? If you use a bowl and say a plate then wash it up afterwards then that has to be more efficient than getting a collection of plates and bowls throughout the day so you have enough to fully load the dishwater as you don't want to run it with unused capacity.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Yes, it is true that they work best when fully loaded. But that is not difficult if you cook every day.
If you just eat to stay alive, it's possible that you do not use much in the way of crockery, but if you like cooking, it's not a chore andI I do have a bit of a reputation of using every untensil I can lay my hands on.
I didn't get this shape on Pot Noodles...
S

 

[Doug]

But dishwashers have been araound for decades and it is only recently that I've noticed this absence of intergated draining board. Perhaps I'm just way behind the times (and I've not been looking at new kitches for the last 10 years).

Single bowls have also been around for decades Steve, I’ve one in the workshop for washing out brushes etc & I must have taken that out from a job I was working on about 30 years ago. It was a newish built house & my customer hated not having a draining board, over the years I removed quite a few & replaced them with traditional sinks with draining boards.

 

[AJB Temple]

If you like hand washing, a double bowl (full size) is good. One always has clean rinse water. Numerous studies (eg Which report Feb 2025) suggest that a dishwasher used efficiently uses a quarter (and in some cases a tenth) of the water that hand washing the same volume of dishes and cutlery does, and is significantly more sanitary due to higher temperatures and superior particle removal and capture.

The other game changer is a boiling water tap. Quooker in our case, with 7 litre tank.

 

[Dr.Al]

If you like hand washing, a double bowl (full size) is good. One always has clean rinse water. Numerous studies (eg Which report Feb 2025) suggest that a dishwasher used efficiently uses a quarter (and in some cases a tenth) of the water that hand washing the same volume of dishes and cutlery does, and is significantly more sanitary due to higher temperatures and superior particle removal and capture.

I read a study recently that suggests that dishwashers might be related to the increase in allergies. Where kids grow up in houses with a dishwasher, the dishes are cleaned far more thoroughly than they are in houses where everything is hand-washed and hence the children aren't exposed to as many allergens during their formative years.

If memory serves me correctly, I was a late teenager when we first got one. I for one would find it very hard to go back to not having a dishwasher; despite there only being two of us in the house, we seem to manage to fill it every day.

 

[AJB Temple]

Not fully convinced that having kids eat off dirty plates is a good way forward

Children need to play outside. Not on a phone or in front of a games console. They also need to eat real food, not UPF made in factories. Foods full of sugar, salt and preservatives pushed on an ever fatter nation by the supermarkets.

 

[SamQ aka Ah! Q!]

Children need to play outside. Not on a phone or in front of a games console. They also need to eat real food, not UPF made in factories. Foods full of sugar, salt and preservatives pushed on an ever fatter nation by the supermarkets.

Hear, hear!!
My grandmother had an old saying: " you must eat a peck of dirt before you die". It was some time before I found out just how big the avoirdupois peck was . Put another way, our relatively sanitised lives prevent children from coming into contact with 'natural' antigens and our immune systems are (relatively) retarded thereby; ergo, we are susceptible to many medical conditions we should shrug off.

Sam, asthmatic.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Sam, asthmatic.

Steve, allergic to children.
S

 

[Woodbloke]

.... only recently that I've noticed this absence of intergated draining board. Perhaps I'm just way behind the times (and I've not been looking at new kitches for the last 10 years).
But I still need to do some washing up by hand. My Japanese knives and my Edinburgh crystalware are not going anywhere near my dishwasher.
S

Steve, you don't need an integrated draining board in any way, shape or form. What you do need is one of these bad badgers from Simplehuman, which will even drain off your posh crystal glasses. The spouty widget drains into the sink leaving your work surface totally dry. We have the smaller version which is fine for our sink; one of our better purchases! - Rob....still use a DW though.

 

[Doug]

The other game changer is a boiling water tap. Quooker in our case, with 7 litre tank.

You might not be so keen if you saw the insides of the tank after a couple of years use.

 

[MattS]

I know you CAN get away without a draining board but why make like difficult? If you then need to buy a gadget to hold dishes to dry, it's like installing just a hob and no oven, and then buying an air fryer.

None of our pans are dishwasher safe, enamel or cast iron, then there's lots of bowls, plates and other bits and pieces which can't go in. And anyone who puts kitchen knives in the dishwasher needs a good talking to. Sink, middle smaller sink and draining board works well for us.

 

[Dr.Al]

And anyone who puts kitchen knives in the dishwasher needs a good talking to.

That includes me. We have a couple "special" knives that get hand washed, but most go in the dishwasher. I never used to do so when we had a dishwasher with a cutlery basket, but once we got a posh dishwasher with a top cutlery tray (that gets rid of any risk of the knives moving around / getting knocked) we started putting sharp knives in the dishwasher. Is there a risk of the handles getting damaged? Maybe, but they've been in the dishwasher every day for several years with no sign of any damage. Does it mean they need sharpening more often? Maybe, but sharpening only takes a few seconds and is only needed every few weeks, so it's fine with me. Does it make me a bad person who needs a good talking to? Maybe, but I don't care.

 

[Woodbloke]

You might not be so keen if you saw the insides of the tank after a couple of years use.

If you have a water softener installed in your system, the inside of the tank will be pristine, as will the inside of the hot water tank (if fitted) and all your other pipework. We're on our second Kinetico having had the first one in 1992 and I'm still breathing but before anyone chimes in that soft water is bad for you, it isn't; I checked with my doc. Soft water also doesn't gum up the Gaggia coffee machine either!

That includes me. We have a couple "special" knives that get hand washed, but most go in the dishwasher. I never used to do so when we had a dishwasher with a cutlery basket, but once we got a posh dishwasher with a top cutlery tray (that gets rid of any risk of the knives moving around / getting knocked) we started putting sharp knives in the dishwasher. Is there a risk of the handles getting damaged? Maybe, but they've been in the dishwasher every day for several years with no sign of any damage. Does it mean they need sharpening more often? Maybe, but sharpening only takes a few seconds and is only needed every few weeks, so it's fine with me. Does it make me a bad person who needs a good talking to? Maybe, but I don't care.

I think what folk are referring to are über pricy Japanese knives with wooden handles. We've had six of the things since 2012 and they don't go near the DW - Rob

 

[Dr.Al]

I think what folk are referring to are über pricy Japanese knives with wooden handles. We've had six of the things since 2012 and they don't go near the DW - Rob

Yes, that's fair enough. As I said, we have a couple of special (and not stainless) knives (one being a fancy Japanese one) that doesn't go in the dishwasher, but "common muck" like our Sabatier ones (which have wooden handles) do go in.

 

[Doug]

If you have a water softener installed in your system, the inside of the tank will be pristine, as will the inside of the hot water tank (if fitted) and all your other pipework. We're on our second Kinetico having had the first one in 1992 and I'm still breathing but before anyone chimes in that soft water is bad for you, it isn't; I checked with my doc. Soft water also doesn't gum up the Gaggia coffee machine either!

I wasn’t talking about lime scale

 

[AJB Temple]

What are you talking about then Doug? Please tell. I've been using the Quooker system for years. The water is softened and filtered, and we follow the Quooker cleaning and maintenance schedule religiously, including flushing the system and valves. It's full of boiling water and delivers it out of the tap at 100C - not much will survive in that environment.

 

[TrimTheKing]

I read a study recently that suggests that dishwashers might be related to the increase in allergies. Where kids grow up in houses with a dishwasher, the dishes are cleaned far more thoroughly than they are in houses where everything is hand-washed and hence the children aren't exposed to as many allergens during their formative years.

If memory serves me correctly, I was a late teenager when we first got one. I for one would find it very hard to go back to not having a dishwasher; despite there only being two of us in the house, we seem to manage to fill it every day.

I get round that by rubbing my hands in the flowerbed before eating a meal, and get the kids to do the same. Pretty much just reversing the "wash your hands before tea!" that I used to get from my mum!

 

[TrimTheKing]

Steve, you don't need an integrated draining board in any way, shape or form. What you do need is one of these bad badgers from Simplehuman, which will even drain off your posh crystal glasses. The spouty widget drains into the sink leaving your work surface totally dry. We have the smaller version which is fine for our sink; one of our better purchases! - Rob....still use a DW though.

£100 for a f'kin sink drainer!!!!

Your pension is WAYYYY too much Rob, send half of it to me every month and I'll make far better us of it!

 

[RogerS]

£100 for a f'kin sink drainer!!!!

Your pension is WAYYYY too much Rob, send half of it to me every month and I'll make far better us of it!

Yup. I'll even send him a free dishtowel

 

[NickM]

If you have a water softener installed in your system, the inside of the tank will be pristine, as will the inside of the hot water tank (if fitted) and all your other pipework.

I didn't think you were supposed to drink softened water?

We have horribly hard water here and have a water softener. We had a boiling water tap in our previous house but not on the softened water. We just relied on the filter. The tank furred up very quickly and it stopped working. It was replaced under warranty. The filters are expensive so we decided not to put one in when we did the kitchen in our new house.

 

[Woodbloke]

I didn't think you were supposed to drink softened water?

We have horribly hard water here and have a water softener. We had a boiling water tap in our previous house but not on the softened water. We just relied on the filter. The tank furred up very quickly and it stopped working. It was replaced under warranty. The filters are expensive so we decided not to put one in when we did the kitchen in our new house.

Wrong assumption. I've been drinking softened water for around three decades+ and it's fine; I even checked with my doc who said there were no issues - Rob

 

[RogerS]

Wrong assumption. I've been drinking softened water for around three decades+ and it's fine; I even checked with my doc who said there were no issues - Rob

Wrong. Drinking softened water is fine unless you are on a low-sodium diet when it can cause problems for some people.

I find the chlorine they shove into the water puts me off drinking directly from the tap. Leaving it standing for a couple of hours or sticking it in the fridge does help.

 

[NickM]

Wrong. Drinking softened water is fine unless you are on a low-sodium diet when it can cause problems for some people.

I find the chlorine they shove into the water puts me off drinking directly from the tap. Leaving it standing for a couple of hours or sticking it in the fridge does help.

This is what I thought. Slightly "salty" (as the calcium is replaced by sodium in the softening process). Generally not at harmful levels or affecting taste (we're not talking sea water!), but not generally recommended.

 

[Woodbloke]

This is what I thought. Slightly "salty" (as the calcium is replaced by sodium in the softening process). Generally not at harmful levels or affecting taste (we're not talking sea water!), but not generally recommended.

Sodium levels are so low you can't taste it; my doc said as it's so low (virtually non existent) it's not worth worrying about (and I have high BP!) so I don't. Say again, I've been drinking soft water out the tap and in tea/coffee for 30+ years now and I'm still alive to tell the tale. If there was any trace of 'salt' in the water SWIMBO would be the first to refuse to drink it...and she's been imbibing for the same amount of time as me - Rob

 

[Woodbloke]

Your pension is WAYYYY too much Rob, send half of it to me every month and I'll make far better us of it!

Pension? You mean final salary pension(s) surely Trim? - Rob

 

[TrimTheKing]

Pension? You mean final salary pension(s) surely Trim? - Rob

You old b'stards had all the luck!

 

[AndyP]

I've done numerous blind taste tastes on our softened water, tap water and Britax filtered. Nobody has ever id'd correctly. IiRC there is more salt in a slice of white bread (shop bought) than litre of softened water.

 

[Woodbloke]

I've done numerous blind taste tastes on our softened water, tap water and Britax filtered. Nobody has ever id'd correctly. IiRC there is more salt in a slice of white bread (shop bought) than litre of softened water.

Agreed Andy, but I also now put the softened water from the Kinetico through a Britax filter jug for use in the Gaggia coffee machine. Even the very tiny amount of hardness in Kinetico water was enough (over time) to choke up the innards of the coffee maker. Belt n'braces - Rob