Joint Practice

[Dr.Al]

I've been doing some practising of joinery. I've got to the point I'm relatively comfortable with dovetails (through, half-lap or tapered sliding), lap joints, M&T joints & housings, but bridles are one that I think of as being particularly irksome.

I'm sure it's partly down to the huge angled ones I did on the garden table, but getting a good fit does seem more awkward than some other joint types (mainly due to cleaning up the inside faces).

Anyway, I've done a couple of attempts & they both went okay:



The beech one (on the right) wasn't quite perfect but that wasn't because of the joint: it was because I stupidly picked a bit of wood that wasn't square and of even thickness (and I didn't bother to check). The side uppermost in the photo looks fine but the lower side is sub-flush on one side as the piece of beech tapered. I didn't bother to glue / clean up that one.

I was very happy with how the ash one came out (after gluing together with home-made liquid hide glue & cleaning up with planes):



That success inspired me to be brave and try an even more difficult joint. This one was quite a challenge & the result is a very long way from perfect but as a first attempt I'm quite pleased:



(Sweet Chestnut & Cherry)

8 second video showing all the sides:

I think I'll have another go at that joint to see if I can improve my technique.

 

[AndyT]

I think you've got it sussed!

I've only done a few bridle joints and I agree that they do feel harder.

 

[Mike G]

I've done hundreds of bridles, and they are definitely the most difficult of the standard joints. If I were setting a woodworking test for someone, it would be to make a bridle joint. And yeah, those dovetailed-all-round scarf joints are fun, aren't they. The first time I saw one I puzzled over it for 10 minutes or more trying to work it out. Once you know, it's obvious.

 

[AndyT]

What's your preference with the bridle joint for separating the waste?

- Drill an undersized hole near the end, freehand, coming in from each side, then pare back to the lines?
- Drill a full sized hole by machine, bang on target, leaving minimum to be pared away?
- No hole, just chop out the waste with a mortise chisel from either side.

 

[Mike G]

It depends on the size. If it's a massive thing in a green oak beam, then an undersized hole. If It's small and set up to a chisel-width, then chop out with a chisel (actually, I'm perfectly happy to use any old bench chisel, and seldom use a mortice chisel). I can't recall ever drilling out exactly the right size.

 

[Dr.Al]

I've done hundreds of bridles, and they are definitely the most difficult of the standard joints. If I were setting a woodworking test for someone, it would be to make a bridle joint. And yeah, those dovetailed-all-round scarf joints are fun, aren't they. The first time I saw one I puzzled over it for 10 minutes or more trying to work it out. Once you know, it's obvious.

Indeed. I made one many years ago out of aluminium & brass. That was mostly an exercise in making a custom angled dovetail cutter for the milling machine (which then does the work of giving accuracy): none of this hand tool nonsense when cutting metal!

I'll definitely have (at least) another go as I don't feel I've got the technique right yet.

What's your preference with the bridle joint for separating the waste?

- Drill an undersized hole near the end, freehand, coming in from each side, then pare back to the lines?
- Drill a full sized hole by machine, bang on target, leaving minimum to be pared away?
- No hole, just chop out the waste with a mortise chisel from either side.

I can't remember what I did on the huge ones on the garden table, but on these two I used a fret saw to cut out most of the waste & then a chisel to pare back to the line.

An undersize drill or mortice chisel would be fine, but I didn't bring either on holiday with me! I don't think I'd ever be tempted to drill to size.

 

[SteveMP]

I bought this course from Richard Maguire and he has an interesting way of making these angled bridals reproduceable ( he can make them and they are interchangeable. I only got as far as making the guides but need to fine tune them, then got sidetracked on other projects.

Side Table - learn to build by hand - Woodworking Projects

Side Table - learn to build by hand - Woodworking Projects. You'll need only one plank & a few basic hand tools. Learn to cut perfect angled bridle joints, as you build this modern table.

www.theenglishwoodworker.com

As for that complex joint, reminds me of that impossible mallet that Abe Lincoln supposedly had.

 

[Dr.Al]

I bought this course from Richard Maguire and he has an interesting way of making these angled bridals reproduceable ( he can make them and they are interchangeable. I only got as far as making the guides but need to fine tune them, then got sidetracked on other projects.

Side Table - learn to build by hand - Woodworking Projects

Side Table - learn to build by hand - Woodworking Projects. You'll need only one plank & a few basic hand tools. Learn to cut perfect angled bridle joints, as you build this modern table.

www.theenglishwoodworker.com

As for that complex joint, reminds me of that impossible mallet that Abe Lincoln supposedly had.

Interesting to see that bridle joint jig: it reminds me of the jigs in this japanese woodwork book and is also similar in concept to the 3D-printed ones I made to help me learn dovetailing.

I think I watched that mallet video a few years ago, although the details have slipped from my leaky memory! One for another time perhaps: I've got quite a few more practices to do already lined up.

 

[SteveMP]

Interesting to see that bridle joint jig: it reminds me of the jigs in this japanese woodwork book and is also similar in concept to the 3D-printed ones I made to help me learn dovetailing.

I think I watched that mallet video a few years ago, although the details have slipped from my leaky memory! One for another time perhaps: I've got quite a few more practices to do already lined up.

I don’t know if you spotted that its 3 jigs? Its actually a pretty ingenious system he has. So that you always cut from the reference face and align the jigs from that face. So one jig accounts for the saw kerf width and one accounts for when you have one kerf sawed and you put it back in the vise, otherwise, the previous saw kerf getting squeezed in the vise would mess up that second cut. I’lm probably explainig it horribly but it makes perfect sense in his video.

 

[Dr.Al]

I don’t know if you spotted that its 3 jigs? Its actually a pretty ingenious system he has. So that you always cut from the reference face and align the jigs from that face. So one jig accounts for the saw kerf width and one accounts for when you have one kerf sawed and you put it back in the vise, otherwise, the previous saw kerf getting squeezed in the vise would mess up that second cut. I’lm probably explainig it horribly but it makes perfect sense in his video.

I think what you've said makes sense. I guessed it would probably have to be more than one (it wasn't obvious, to me at least, in the preview video). There are similar things in that Japanese book I linked to if memory serves.

Sounds like it would be an interesting series to watch if I didn't already have such a long list of things I might one day watch!

 

[RogerS]

I've done hundreds of bridles, and they are definitely the most difficult of the standard joints. If I were setting a woodworking test for someone, it would be to make a bridle joint. And yeah, those dovetailed-all-round scarf joints are fun, aren't they. The first time I saw one I puzzled over it for 10 minutes or more trying to work it out. Once you know, it's obvious.

It must be April 1st (or more commonly AI). I canna see it.

 

[Dr.Al]

It must be April 1st (or more commonly AI). I canna see it.

Here you go Roger:



Definitely an Al joint, not an A.I. one!

That was attempt number 2, which I was much happier with so I decided to fish glue it together & tomorrow I'll run a smoothing plane over it to see how it looks.

 

[SteveMP]

This Seaton square has an interesting joint where its a through mortise and a bridle joint combined: i haven’t been brave enough to try:

This Try Square is a Little Bit of BS - Lost Art Press

To reward myself for finishing my edit of the translated text of “To Make as Perfectly as Possible: Roubo on Marquetry,” I spent the morning in the shop

blog.lostartpress.com

Video shows it much better and build:

The Woodwright's Shop | Try Square with Christopher Schwarz | Season 33 | Episode 11

Christopher Schwarz shows Roy Underhill how to measure up with an English try square.

www.pbs.org

 

[Dr.Al]

This Seaton square has an interesting joint where its a through mortise and a bridle joint combined: i haven’t been brave enough to try:

This Try Square is a Little Bit of BS - Lost Art Press

To reward myself for finishing my edit of the translated text of “To Make as Perfectly as Possible: Roubo on Marquetry,” I spent the morning in the shop

blog.lostartpress.com

Video shows it much better and build:

The Woodwright's Shop | Try Square with Christopher Schwarz | Season 33 | Episode 11

Christopher Schwarz shows Roy Underhill how to measure up with an English try square.

www.pbs.org

Sheesh. Anyone would think you're trying to make my life difficult!

I'll add that one to the list of joints to try.

 

[SteveMP]

Sheesh. Anyone would think you're trying to make my life difficult!

I'll add that one to the list of joints to try.

Haha not at all. I just find some of these joints really interesting is all and curious how people came up with them. Especially some of those really complex Japanese joints.

 

[Dr.Al]

The fish glue had set overnight so this morning I trimmed it shorter & planed it all round.



I'm really pleased with how that one went. The Sweet Chestnut was, as usual, a dream to work with. The Cherry was also good although slightly less so, so I had to be much more careful. I think that part of the reason this went better was that I swapped ends such that the tails (which seem fragile) are in Chestnut rather than Cherry.

12 second clip showing all the sides (I hope you're all appreciating these videos: they take an age to upload on the wifi here - speedtest.net shows 0.1 Mbps upload speed!)

Buoyed by the success of that one I also had a go at another joint. Again that was fish glued overnight and then planed this morning:



This one is called "Osaka Jo Otemon Bashira Tsugite" or Otemon Gate Pillar Splice Joint. Found at the foot of a pillar at Osaka Castle, it apparently had to be X-rayed to figure out the interior structure!

All the sides:

This one was made from Sweet Chestnut and Sapele. The Sapele was easy enough to work with, helped by the fact there's easy external access to all the bits you need to pare. The Chestnut was a little more awkward this time, but only because there are some unsupported end grain chopping cuts (I had some internal break-out that's invisible once the joint is together).

I suspect it would be a lot easier if I had been confident enough to saw to the lines. It'd probably also be easier on a bigger piece: the blanks I'm using are a shade under 40 mm square.

I think I'll have another go at that one. I know I made a mistake in marking up (which produced a small gap on one of the 45° edges) so I won't make that mistake again. I'd also like to see if I can sort out the last chopping operations to have less internal break-out.

 

[AndyT]

Now that's just weird!

 

[Dr.Al]

Now that's just weird!

Yes! I had to model it in CAD to get my head round it.

 

[TrimTheKing]

It must be April 1st (or more commonly AI). I canna see it.

This has been on here before Rog, give those little grey cells a rattle mate!

 

[AndyP]

Yes! I had to model it in CAD to get my head round it.

I just had to find out how that was done.

 

[AndyT]

Thanks for the video Andy but it still makes no sense!

 

[Cabinetman]

Same here, definitely weird.

 

[AndyT]

I get it now, having watched it again. Very devious.

 

[Dr.Al]

I just had to find out how that was done.

Thanks for sharing that Andy. In all honesty it never occurred to me to check if there was a video showing the construction.

If I can face the amount of buffering that'll happen on this network connection, I might have to watch it to see if there are any hints on better ways to cut it.

 

[TrimTheKing]

This Seaton square has an interesting joint where its a through mortise and a bridle joint combined: i haven’t been brave enough to try:

This Try Square is a Little Bit of BS - Lost Art Press

To reward myself for finishing my edit of the translated text of “To Make as Perfectly as Possible: Roubo on Marquetry,” I spent the morning in the shop

blog.lostartpress.com

Video shows it much better and build:

The Woodwright's Shop | Try Square with Christopher Schwarz | Season 33 | Episode 11

Christopher Schwarz shows Roy Underhill how to measure up with an English try square.

www.pbs.org

I really like Roy, but bloody hell I found myself getting annoyed at him constantly grabbing at the workpieces which Schwartz was working, and when he grabbed the piece he was actively sawing...!

 

[Pete Maddex]

I think Roy is trying to keep things moving as the end is nigh of the program, it’s all one take so I think things get a bit tense as time goes by.

Pete

 

[TrimTheKing]

I'm not sure him sticking his hands in all the time speeds anything up tbh...

 

[SteveMP]

Wow those are all really impressive Al! Are those joints all in the book that you linked to?